When should you move up a level

[bacardirum]

Been playing $0.10/$0.25 NL on Stars, maximum buy in $25 on all tables, playing two tables max. I got to $39 on one table after 2 hours play, and $57 on the other table. I find it very draining for the low rewards after 2 hours play, the problem is I don't think there is so much action, everyone folds, lucky if you have 3 players in the hand before flop, I got my money from just being patient and then trapping the players with lower balances who push all in. Is there a vast difference in players like from $0.10/$0.25 to say perhaps $1/$2 NL, or will it be the same quality of player at these levels too.

[GaF]

Re: When should you move up a level At all levels, you will have some bad players and some good players. Each time you move up a level, the proportion of good players will increase and the proportion of bad players will decrease. I think that the difference in standard between 10c/25c and $1/$2 will be absolutely huge. At the $1/$2 level I think you'll be coming across increasing numbers of regulars who grind out a living from online poker, that you just wont get at 10c/25c. In my mind, to be good at poker, you dont think at all about the money - just the number of big blinds. This works at the lower levels and the higher levels. If you are thinking of the cash at the microstakes, then you'll probably not be motivated and play too loose. If you are thinking about the cash at the higher levels, you'll probably be scared and play too tight. You should always strive to play the best poker you can - forget the money and play for poker chips. If you're doing that, it doesnt matter if you're playing for 10c/25c or $1/$2 (or $100/$200 :loon) To move up I think you need to be sure of 2 critical criteria: 1) You are profitable at the level you are currently playing at. 2) You have the bankroll to play at the higher level, such that you are not scared to play, not scared to lose The first one is quite tricky, and the majority of poker players overestimate their own ability and believe they're winning when they're not. Why? Poker is a high variance game - your edge is small. In the short run, poker is almost 100% luck. In the long run, poker is almost 100% skill. So your time frame needs to be long enough that your bankroll is a measure of your poker skills (if your time frame is too short, then your balance isn;t a measure of your poker skill, but your poker luck!). What kind of time frame is needed? It's tough to say - there's no direct cut off - the more hands you play, the more confident you can become. As a rough guide though, I wouldn't even think about moving up if I've played less than 10,000 hands at the current level - and unless you're totally crushing it, you'll probably want to play significantly more. Number 2, bankroll management, is far easier - suggest you give this article a read - http://www.pocketfives.com/poker-articles/Basic-Bankroll-Management-2425952 When you are ready to move up, on the criteria above - you probably dont want to just move up lock stock and barrel in one go - but to take occasional shots at the next level - give it a go, see how it goes - if it goes well and you're feeling comfortable, then you can build up the shots that you take. If your bankroll takes a hit, then remember you must move down and rebuild your bankroll at the lower level (the level you now know you can win at)

[chrisa]

Re: When should you move up a level 20 max buy ins for that level if you want to move up. I like to play 50k hands minimum before I move up even if I'm overrolled for those stakes.

[bacardirum]

Re: When should you move up a level Thanks for you opinions, it just goes to show what I know, I had no idea there would be some regulars who grind out a living at these $1/$2 tables etc I naturally assumed it would all be much higher levels for this. To be honest I have not really been a cash player, more into tournaments and s&g's, been playing for around 3 years or so, but never really took it too seriously where I wanted to make a living from it, was more a way of relaxation and fun for a few hours in my spare time. I would say my level of play is average, for s&g and tournament play, my biggest win on tournament was 2 years ago at just over $3000, that was finishing 3rd on a party poker tournament, I play at Stars now and I can frequently win the $10 double or nothing games, but again this is low margin, as it just takes 1 or 2 where you get a bad beat and your bankroll is back to how it started :) I completely agree with your thoughts on the limits, I think best I perhaps stick with $0.10/$0.25 until I am fully comfortable here, ie making profit over say a month or two, and then I will make my move to $0.25/$0.50 etc, and so on, I think this is correct from what you are suggesting and thanks for all your info ;).

At all levels, you will have some bad players and some good players. Each time you move up a level, the proportion of good players will increase and the proportion of bad players will decrease. I think that the difference in standard between 10c/25c and $1/$2 will be absolutely huge. At the $1/$2 level I think you'll be coming across increasing numbers of regulars who grind out a living from online poker, that you just wont get at 10c/25c. In my mind, to be good at poker, you dont think at all about the money - just the number of big blinds. This works at the lower levels and the higher levels. If you are thinking of the cash at the microstakes, then you'll probably not be motivated and play too loose. If you are thinking about the cash at the higher levels, you'll probably be scared and play too tight. You should always strive to play the best poker you can - forget the money and play for poker chips. If you're doing that, it doesnt matter if you're playing for 10c/25c or $1/$2 (or $100/$200 :loon) To move up I think you need to be sure of 2 critical criteria: 1) You are profitable at the level you are currently playing at. 2) You have the bankroll to play at the higher level, such that you are not scared to play, not scared to lose The first one is quite tricky, and the majority of poker players overestimate their own ability and believe they're winning when they're not. Why? Poker is a high variance game - your edge is small. In the short run, poker is almost 100% luck. In the long run, poker is almost 100% skill. So your time frame needs to be long enough that your bankroll is a measure of your poker skills (if your time frame is too short, then your balance isn;t a measure of your poker skill, but your poker luck!). What kind of time frame is needed? It's tough to say - there's no direct cut off - the more hands you play, the more confident you can become. As a rough guide though, I wouldn't even think about moving up if I've played less than 10,000 hands at the current level - and unless you're totally crushing it, you'll probably want to play significantly more. Number 2, bankroll management, is far easier - suggest you give this article a read - http://www.pocketfives.com/poker-articles/Basic-Bankroll-Management-2425952 When you are ready to move up, on the criteria above - you probably dont want to just move up lock stock and barrel in one go - but to take occasional shots at the next level - give it a go, see how it goes - if it goes well and you're feeling comfortable, then you can build up the shots that you take. If your bankroll takes a hit, then remember you must move down and rebuild your bankroll at the lower level (the level you now know you can win at)

[GaF]

Re: When should you move up a level

I think best I perhaps stick with $0.10/$0.25 until I am fully comfortable here' date=' ie making profit over say a month or two, and then I will make my move to $0.25/$0.50 etc, and so on, I think this is correct from what you are suggesting and thanks for all your info ;).[/quote'] Do you use tracking software such as Poker Tracker 3 or Holdem Manager? I view it as pretty essential in cash games (less so in tournaments, but still useful) - if you're not then you're at a disadvantage against your opponents who are. It will also give you good stats on your own play - and helping you plug leaks. Just because you are profitable at a level, it doesnt mean that it is the best level for you to play. For example if you win at a rate of 14 Big Blinds per 100 hands at 10c/25c and move up to 25c/50c and make a profit of 5 Big Blind per 100 hands - then you're profit is lower at the higher level.

[GaF]

Re: When should you move up a level

I had no idea there would be some regulars who grind out a living at these $1/$2 tables etc

I dont know how low you can go to get those who grind out a living. Ultimately if you can make enough money to survive on, then you can do it - and I'd imagine you can do that at pretty low levels. I'd even imagine it would be possible at 5c/10c (though I dont know if anyone actually does it there) - if you can make 10 big blinds an hour per table, and you play 10 tables, then that would be $10/hour - that's grinding to the extreme, but possible......

[bacardirum]

Re: When should you move up a level Hi, no I have never used any tracking software before, had not evem heard of them :), what one from the two you suggested would you recommend for play at Stars? I dont think I could play 10 tables :D I once was playing 6 tables at Stars, $10 double or nothing and that was pretty mental, struggled to keep up, think 3 - 4 max and I am just about ok. I will see how it goes at the $0.10/$0.25 as only been doing it few days now, I have never left the sessions yet with a loss, but I have never left with a reasonable amount for the time played either, but I am seeing people there now with balances over $100, and as you cant buy in for more than $25 I suppose they are doing really well. Also forgot to add, you see when I am looking at games $0.10/$0.25 to play in, what should I be looking out for so it has the chance to be a really good game to play in and win, like is there indications to the stats that are on the outside which I should look out for. Also I have only been playing at 9 seated tables, should I consider 6 also, not used to 6 before, what would be the advantages/disadvantages of these games. Thanks

[ubermonkey1]

Re: When should you move up a level

Hi, no I have never used any tracking software before, had not evem heard of them :), what one from the two you suggested would you recommend for play at Stars? I dont think I could play 10 tables :D I once was playing 6 tables at Stars, $10 double or nothing and that was pretty mental, struggled to keep up, think 3 - 4 max and I am just about ok. I will see how it goes at the $0.10/$0.25 as only been doing it few days now, I have never left the sessions yet with a loss, but I have never left with a reasonable amount for the time played either, but I am seeing people there now with balances over $100, and as you cant buy in for more than $25 I suppose they are doing really well. Also forgot to add, you see when I am looking at games $0.10/$0.25 to play in, what should I be looking out for so it has the chance to be a really good game to play in and win, like is there indications to the stats that are on the outside which I should look out for. Also I have only been playing at 9 seated tables, should I consider 6 also, not used to 6 before, what would be the advantages/disadvantages of these games. Thanks

okay first question .i prefer pt3 on the whole ,although i dont tend to use it the hu display is handy for multitabling and works on stars. as for multitabling i'd play as many tables as you feel comfy with,seen people like rainman khan play over 40:looni dont like to play more than 4 because it becomes a bit boring and i'm just playing abc poker:\ it is possible to go way higher than $100 on a buyin but usually its gonna be a player with a fairly aggressive style ,i'd guess from your posts your pretty tight as you end up just up on each table and for multitabling it sounds like your be doing all the right things:ok its hard to keep an eye on each table if your in every pot and its easy to drop buyins if your not paying good attention,so although you may just win 10bb in an hours play per table, it all counts. in fact very few players make that sort of profit every game ,so your results arent to bad at all. if you could do that on 4 tables at 50c/$1 thats $40 an hour:loon which i would guess would be easily enough for most people to live on . as for what to look out for when picking tables thats easy ,find loosing players and take advantage of them:ok you can set pt3 and other software to record the tables you play and also any other tables you wish(ie all 12c/25c tables)and find out who's losing and how badly.obviously if it's a table with a lot of bad players, happy days.you wont find this all that often but you just try to find a good percentage of bad players and try to avoid the good players(unless of course you have a very good hand) as for the difference between 6 and 9 seaters ,you really need an aggressive game to do okay as the blinds come down quicker , so you can make money quicker but also lose it quicker:unsure if you do play pretty tight i would suggest staying on the 9 seaters and try to develop a bit more aggression. don't go mad playing every hand but take the odd little risk here and there and try playing a wider range of hands especially from late positions,if that goes okay then try the 6 seats .

[GaF]

Re: When should you move up a level Both PT3 and HEM have free trials - suggest you give them a go and see how you find them :ok

[GaF]

Re: When should you move up a level For table selection, PT3 has a Table Selector, but it's pay monthly (and not cheap) - I've never tried it, but the latest Beta gives a free trial for 25 searches, so may see how it goes. The other alternative is the SpadeEye range of software - this is a 1 off payment so should be a cheaper option than PT3 Table Selector. It has 2 uses: Firstly it can go through the lobby table by table and look all of the players up in your database and filter them to display to you just the tables you want to play (based on your own criteria). This is pretty powerful. The second use, which only some sites allow, is datamining - when you're not using your computer, you set it running and it will open and close tables, collecting hand histories (thousands and thousands a day) and adding them to your database - this will improve your table selection data (and you'll know all about players, even if you've never played them before). You can just leave it data-mining 24 hours a day :loon

[GaF]

Re: When should you move up a level

I will see how it goes at the $0.10/$0.25 as only been doing it few days now' date=' I have never left the sessions yet with a loss, but I have never left with a reasonable amount for the time played either,[/quote'] On average, if you are earning about 10 Big Blinds per Hundred Hands (over a big enough sample) then you are crushing a game. So if you sit down at 1 table with $25 and leave that table 100 hands later, and on average you leave with $27.50, then you are doing very well. I'm sure you would say $2.50 is not a worthwhile amount - but as I said before, it's an error to think in terms of money - think in Big Blinds (getting PT3 or HEM will help you with this). It is unrealistic to think you can regularly sit down with $25 and leave the table an hour later with $100.

[glceud]

Re: When should you move up a level

I dont know how low you can go to get those who grind out a living. Ultimately if you can make enough money to survive on, then you can do it - and I'd imagine you can do that at pretty low levels. I'd even imagine it would be possible at 5c/10c (though I dont know if anyone actually does it there) - if you can make 10 big blinds an hour per table, and you play 10 tables, then that would be $10/hour - that's grinding to the extreme, but possible......

Depends what you mean by a "living" but I'm pretty sure if I played for a full 40 hours a week playing 6 tables at 5c/10c I would be slightly above the minimum wage. I am mostly short stacking $0.25/$0.50 and $0.50/$1.00 at the moment and would say that taking into account the added benefits of raking more via rake back/ monthly bonus's and entry into loyalty tournies(dont call them freerolls any more) I am making slightly more than slightly more than the minimum wage. After any decent tourney win I take a stab at higher limits and get out once I realise I was earning more at lower levels. Dont know your age or your outlook on life Bacardirum but bankroll management is vastly overated, very few rich poker players got were they are today with out taking a stab at it before their time. Life is far too short;)

[ubermonkey1]

Re: When should you move up a level

For table selection, PT3 has a Table Selector, but it's pay monthly (and not cheap) - I've never tried it, but the latest Beta gives a free trial for 25 searches, so may see how it goes. The other alternative is the SpadeEye range of software - this is a 1 off payment so should be a cheaper option than PT3 Table Selector. It has 2 uses: Firstly it can go through the lobby table by table and look all of the players up in your database and filter them to display to you just the tables you want to play (based on your own criteria). This is pretty powerful. The second use, which only some sites allow, is datamining - when you're not using your computer, you set it running and it will open and close tables, collecting hand histories (thousands and thousands a day) and adding them to your database - this will improve your table selection data (and you'll know all about players, even if you've never played them before). You can just leave it data-mining 24 hours a day :loon

pt3 table tracker is pretty much the same gaf:ok as you say it's a very handy tool for anyone thinking about cash games.

[muttley]

Re: When should you move up a level

For table selection, PT3 has a Table Selector, but it's pay monthly (and not cheap) - I've never tried it, but the latest Beta gives a free trial for 25 searches, so may see how it goes.

You get the Table Selector for a month when you first sign up to PT3, but I didn't find it very useful, as it utilises your own database, which takes much more than a month to build up to a decent sample size.

[bacardirum]

Re: When should you move up a level Thanks for your advise and all the rest, taken on board ;) I will look out for the software mentioned this evening and try it out, see how it goes. One final thing, I moved up levels last night, I was really getting bored playing at the $0.10/$0.25, I mean I am quite patient while playing, but it was getting to me, the pots were really small, not many players were playing, it just didnt really feel like I was in a game of poker, and it was boring me. Anyways I moved up to level $1/$2, I just wanted to see how it felt for experience, if I am truthfully honest after playing 10 blinds or so I really did not feel comfortable here, I was not used to the larger raises before flop etc etc, or the larger raises after, I really felt like I was not ready for this and didnt really want to continue and lose my money. That was good to know so I walked away. I then bought in to a $0.50/$1 NL game, and I really started to feel at home at here, I bought in with $60 and I finished the two hour session on $177, this was on the one table, I just felt like I really enjoyed it here and it was within my comfort zone and had action. The table finally fell flat and there were just 4 of us so I left. I joined another one at same level, this time with $100 buy in, I played for around 30 minutes, I finished on $114 and decided to call it quits as it was nearly midnight and I was quite sleepy. I don't really know what to make of this, if it was just good fortune and it wont be the same again, or if this is actually a level where I feel I like to play at. I will try again later this evening on the same levels and play for a few hours to see how I get on. I was looking at the hand history there, it was 74 hands I played when I bought it at $60.50, and ended with $176.55, and was 10.12pm - 11.22pm playing time, not the two hours I thought it was around, near enough, I wasnt sure how to get hand histories but I just did, never used that before :) There was a hand where I dont know if I played it correctly or not, but it felt right to do it, I just thought with having the open ended straight draw and the flush draw, it was ok to call the bets considering what was already in the pot. I dont know, maybe you can tell me if I played it ok or not. I was the blig blind I would not normally have called the raise in any other situation with this hand I dont think, I thought he was trying to steal the blind from me, or I wanted to protect my blind with a playable hand. Also I think had the 2c not come, if I folded then, like say it was 2h or something, would that have been correct. PokerStars Game #27786163326: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2009/05/03 22:49:41 WET [2009/05/03 17:49:41 ET] Table 'Eurynome IX' 9-max Seat #9 is the button Seat 1: le.g0nz ($149.20 in chips) Seat 2: rsaver ($106.10 in chips) Seat 3: dwq2300 ($18 in chips) Seat 4: Falafable ($22.50 in chips) Seat 5: kwyk ($31.15 in chips) Seat 6: Trippen180 ($20 in chips) Seat 7: DirdyBou ($20 in chips) Seat 8: cymax ($19.50 in chips) Seat 9: Mr. Segan ($50.70 in chips) le.g0nz: posts small blind $0.50 rsaver: posts big blind $1 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to rsaver [Tc 7c] dwq2300: folds Falafable: folds kwyk: folds Trippen180: folds DirdyBou: folds cymax: folds Mr. Segan: folds le.g0nz: raises $3 to $4 rsaver: calls $3 *** FLOP *** [2s 8h 9c] le.g0nz: bets $6 rsaver: calls $6 *** TURN *** [2s 8h 9c] [2c] le.g0nz: bets $11 rsaver: calls $11 *** RIVER *** [2s 8h 9c 2c] [6s] le.g0nz: checks rsaver: bets $18 le.g0nz: calls $18 *** SHOW DOWN *** rsaver: shows [Tc 7c] (a straight, Six to Ten) le.g0nz: mucks hand rsaver collected $75 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot $78 | Rake $3 Board [2s 8h 9c 2c 6s] Seat 1: le.g0nz (small blind) mucked [Th Ts] Seat 2: rsaver (big blind) showed [Tc 7c] and won ($75) with a straight, Six to Ten Seat 3: dwq2300 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 4: Falafable folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: kwyk folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 6: Trippen180 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 7: DirdyBou folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 8: cymax folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 9: Mr. Segan (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

okay first question .i prefer pt3 on the whole ,although i dont tend to use it the hu display is handy for multitabling and works on stars. as for multitabling i'd play as many tables as you feel comfy with,seen people like rainman khan play over 40:looni dont like to play more than 4 because it becomes a bit boring and i'm just playing abc poker:\ it is possible to go way higher than $100 on a buyin but usually its gonna be a player with a fairly aggressive style ,i'd guess from your posts your pretty tight as you end up just up on each table and for multitabling it sounds like your be doing all the right things:ok its hard to keep an eye on each table if your in every pot and its easy to drop buyins if your not paying good attention,so although you may just win 10bb in an hours play per table, it all counts. in fact very few players make that sort of profit every game ,so your results arent to bad at all. if you could do that on 4 tables at 50c/$1 thats $40 an hour:loon which i would guess would be easily enough for most people to live on . as for what to look out for when picking tables thats easy ,find loosing players and take advantage of them:ok you can set pt3 and other software to record the tables you play and also any other tables you wish(ie all 12c/25c tables)and find out who's losing and how badly.obviously if it's a table with a lot of bad players, happy days.you wont find this all that often but you just try to find a good percentage of bad players and try to avoid the good players(unless of course you have a very good hand) as for the difference between 6 and 9 seaters ,you really need an aggressive game to do okay as the blinds come down quicker , so you can make money quicker but also lose it quicker:unsure if you do play pretty tight i would suggest staying on the 9 seaters and try to develop a bit more aggression. don't go mad playing every hand but take the odd little risk here and there and try playing a wider range of hands especially from late positions,if that goes okay then try the 6 seats .

[ubermonkey1]

Re: When should you move up a level the hand above you played okay,maybe i'da bet a bit more on the river(like $25 ish)to make it more worthwhile:unsure you could have raised on the flop but the call is good as well:ok you have good implied odds with fairly deep stacks so you can take a risk . if your gonna take the risk then i would try to eek out a bit more on the river,that way your not risking $17 post flop to win an extra $18. keep it up ,your getting some good results :clap:clap:clapbut there's always those bad days as well ,so don't go too mad;)

[bacardirum]

Re: When should you move up a level Thanks for that, yeah I wasnt sure if the final raise was good enough, I was 1/2 thinking I didnt want to scare away and therefore get nothing, something I will have to work on I think. Tonight has been another good night, playing two tables, same limits, my bankroll is now $288.65, neve rhad it this high before, so I am enjoying cash poker at these stakes right now, as you said though, I will keep it calm as I am sure I will have a bad one soon. Also take on board about the betting, sometimes I think I am betting too fast and after the hand I am like, why didnt I do this or this you know, so working on that ;)

the hand above you played okay,maybe i'da bet a bit more on the river(like $25 ish)to make it more worthwhile:unsure you could have raised on the flop but the call is good as well:ok you have good implied odds with fairly deep stacks so you can take a risk . if your gonna take the risk then i would try to eek out a bit more on the river,that way your not risking $17 post flop to win an extra $18. keep it up ,your getting some good results :clap:clap:clapbut there's always those bad days as well ,so don't go too mad;)