A harsh introduction to cash - Continue or rethink my strategy?

[Paul176]

Alright so I finally built up a bankroll capable of playing 0.5c/0.10c cash if I bought in for half the max. by grinding out begginner SnGs. After my first day/session at it I've taken an absolute battering. I should probably have set myself a maximum loss but I'm now running at a $30.76 loss after 307 hands. I realise this could just be down to luck but at the same time I'd rather not blow any more cash without asking the question over whether I'm just not playing well enough/not good enough. I felt I played reasonably in the session and was grinding out a small profit generally but I had a number of crippling hands. Here is one of the last ones: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2009-04-10 20:20:15 Table 'Sulamani (max 6)' 6-max Seat #5 is the button Seat 1: Superflii ($8.95) Seat 2: mrsded ($11.44) Seat 3: NNR100 ($13.26) Seat 4: babuna ($35.67) Seat 5: Paul176 ($4.92) Seat 6: francis87 ($2.30) ------------------------------ NEW HAND francis87: posts the small blind $0.05 Superflii: posts the big blind $0.10 --- DEALING POCKETS Paul176 is dealt [Ks,Kh] mrsded: folds NNR100: raises $0.25 to $0.35 babuna: calls $0.35 Paul176: raises $0.50 to $0.85 francis87: folds Superflii: folds NNR100: folds babuna: calls $0.50 --- DEALING FLOP [Tc,8h,9s] babuna: checks Paul176: bets $1.50 babuna: calls $1.50 --- DEALING TURN [8s] babuna: checks Paul176: bets $2.50 babuna: calls $2.50 --- DEALING RIVER [5d] babuna: checks Paul176: goes all in $0.07 babuna: calls $0.07 babuna: shows [Jd 7s] Paul176: shows [Ks Kh] babuna: shows [Jd 7s] Paul176: shows [Ks Kh] Hand 1577102584: babuna: wins main pot($10.24) ------------------------------ I had a good few more hands such as that one. Just picked that one as I'm a bit concerned I overplayed my overpair. I then boughtback in and won a nice $3 pot. The next hand I picked up AK and a player I already had down as a bit of a nutjob raised reflop so I reraised him all in, got my call and he flips KJ. Next thing I know king and a jack hit and I'm down another $8. That that led me to buy in for $10 - which was more than I was supposed to :@. Soon after this happened. Bodog History for Hand #1577166936 Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2009-04-10 21:37:35 Table 'Swain (max 6)' 6-max Seat #4 is the button Seat 1: Aces__Joe ($12.43) Seat 2: bobbagadush ($6.49) Seat 3: wnk92892 ($7.38) Seat 4: babydaisy ($17.78) Seat 5: poke it ($9.78) Seat 6: Paul176 ($10.80) ------------------------------ NEW HAND poke it: posts the small blind $0.05 Paul176: posts the big blind $0.10 --- DEALING POCKETS Paul176 is dealt [Kc,Ks] Aces__Joe: folds bobbagadush: raises $0.25 to $0.35 wnk92892: calls $0.35 babydaisy: folds poke it: calls $0.30 Paul176: raises $0.40 to $0.75 bobbagadush: calls $0.40 wnk92892: calls $0.40 poke it: calls $0.40 --- DEALING FLOP [Ts,Tc,Qh] poke it: checks Paul176: bets $2.00 bobbagadush: folds wnk92892: folds poke it: raises $2.00 to $4.00 Paul176: calls $2.00 --- DEALING TURN [6d] poke it: checks Paul176: checks --- DEALING RIVER [2c] poke it: goes all in $5.03 Paul176: calls $5.03 poke it: shows [6h Th] Paul176: shows [Kc Ks] poke it: shows [6h Th] Paul176: shows [Kc Ks] Hand 1577166936: poke it: wins main pot($20.96) ------------------------------ The call on the end was probably a little bit fishy but I had decided that he was making a move in one last attempt to get me off the hand - well that or I just couldn't accept my kings were beat again. Analysis on the two hands would be great! I lost a fair amount more by running into straights, trips and two pairs with top pair. I don't really feel I played that badly but I'm also aware that I might just be fooling myself! While a very small sample (307 hands) here are some of the stats from the session: Vol. Put $ In Pot: 31.27% Vol. Put £ In From SB: 45.00% Won $ When Saw Flop: 38.89% Raised Pre-Flop: 17.59% First Action On Flop After Pre-Flop Raise: Raise: 2.86% Bet: 71.43% Call: 5.71% Check: 11.43% Check/Raise: 2.86% Fold: 5.71% No Flop/No Action: 35.19% Not sure how much use these stats are but thought I would throw them in there in case I was doing anything glaring wrong. Anyway my confidence has now understandably taken a little knock and I was hoping for advice on the best route forward. The way I see it these are my options: I could move my balance to a different site with lower limits and play 1c/2c or 2c/4c in order to boost my confidence (and hopefully bankroll) a little. This would also allow me to buy in for the max allowed at the table and stay within my bankroll. I could go back to tournies and attempt to regain what I have lost. I'm loathed to do this though as I find tournie play a little monotamous at times and this was the reason for my attempt to move to cash. Or I could put it down to a bad run and stick at 5c/10c buying in for $5 and hope things turn around. I realise I'm likely overreacting and with the size of the sample analysis is hard but any thoughts/advice would be wonderful! :)

[GaF]

Re: A harsh introduction to cash - Continue or rethink my strategy? I certainly havent cracked cash games yet - even at the microstackes - but I'll offer viewpoints anyway - I may or may not be right - but hopefully it will give you a few things to consider and think about. - First thing that jumps out - your reraises with KK are pretty small - Hand 1 I would be reraising to about $1.50 pre flop (you raised to $0.85). Hand 3 I would be raising to about $2 pre flop (more than Hand 1 because you're out of position and have an extra caller of the raise) - Hand 2 (AKvKJ) - you got it all in pre flop, when you had your opponent dominated - you have positive ev - you are happy. The result is unimportant. - 31% VPIP pre flop is way too high - 18% PFR is a long way short of your 31% VPIP - sounds too passive to me. Suggest you look over some of the stats from the benchmarking (though slightly different as it's 5 handed - so you should be playing tighter). For VPIP there was a clear line between the top players and the bottom players. All of the top players had VPIP of below 26%. All of the bottom players had VPIP above 26%. So 31% is huge! - Your post flop bet stat of 71% seems good to me :ok I think the thing to be aware of is that in cash games (compared to tourneys), implied odds are (usually) larger, as stacks are deeper. If you're playing for stacks in cash you will generally therefore need a stronger hand than if you're playing for stacks in a tournament - so an overpair to the board is far stronger in a tourney than it is in a cash game. There is a big difference in the way you should play the game as you play for different effective stack sizes - I'm not a fan therefore of buying in short (later when your game is steady, you may want to buy in short as a deliberate tactic, that's fine :ok) - it confuses your thought processes and learning/development - so in your shoes, I would rather buy in for a full stack at lower stakes than buy in for a partial stack at higher stakes. (again, as you move up the stakes, there's room for buying in short when taking a shot, but primarily I think you need to learn your game at the previous levels with a full stack first)

[Paul176]

Re: A harsh introduction to cash - Continue or rethink my strategy? Thanks GaF! I think I missed a few key points. Firstly the bet size with kings I just transferred from tournaments - even then though you're right it was small. Secondly I started limping. I have no idea why I would never do this in my normal play but it crept in for some reason. Thanks for highlighting both of these things. I think my biggest mistake was not just calling it a night after losing the first buy in. I can lose tournies and I just accept it and move on. As this was my first real shot at cash I was letting it nag at me and tilt. Not in the traditional all-in over aggressive sense but tilt in the sense that I just wasn't playing my normal game. I ground out some tournies and took the winnings to have a quick cash game and I played better and got much better results today. Results will fluctuate but you know when you're playing well at poker like with any sport. I think the think that helped most was getting pokerace running - I didn't quite realise what I was up against. The average V$P appears to be rougly 40% generally with <10% preflop raises. The betting and fold to bet stats tell the rest of the story. Basically players are limping (or calling - raises don't actually seem to change certain players play) and hoping to get something. Postflop you get the madmen and the players who are simply playing their hand. Essentially the same players that frequent the tournaments and yet for some reason I had the idea they were all attempting to outplay me with air! Anyway I have a freeroll to play! :clap Thanks for the help again GaF :ok If anyone else feels they have anything to say I welcome it!

[ubermonkey1]

Re: A harsh introduction to cash - Continue or rethink my strategy? yeah gotta agree with gaf re the size of reraises with the kings. it's giving players good odds to call with any 2 cards,then your in trouble re their range. also as gaf said deeper stacks mean you get greater implied odds, so you really have to be carefull not to dump a buy in by not being able to fold a big pp. admittedly both spots here are a little tricky, the opponent could be drawing in hand 1 and could have a queen in hand 2,so i don't think either hand was terrible but maybe the bigger raise would have picked up a small but safe pot earlier:\ i find playing cash at these levels much harder than the levels i usually play(around 50/1 1/2)just because of the random nature of many of the opponents:unsure on the minus side its easy to go on a bad run(with hands like those above) and lose a few buy ins. on the plus side other players are prone to make bigger mistakes ,so when your hitting hands you get paid off more often:). so the swings can be a little worse at this level and with only 300 hands played you cant really be too down on yourself,just dont go chasing losses and keep playing your own game:ok

[GaF]

Re: A harsh introduction to cash - Continue or rethink my strategy?

Vol. Put $ In Pot: 31.27% Raised Pre-Flop: 17.59%

- 31% VPIP pre flop is way too high - 18% PFR is a long way short of your 31% VPIP - sounds too passive to me.

I think it's worthwhile having a look at this thread - http://www.punterslounge.com/forum/f95/nl10-benchmarking-autoratings-83138/ Whilst any style of play can be profitable in poker - some are easier to win with than others. From the thread, you will see that players playing loose are in general losing players. Players that are playing tight, are, in general, winning players. 31% VPIP categorises you as a loose player (by the autorate definitions) 18% PFR categorises you as an aggressive pre flop player. Not sure what your aggression factor is, but you post flop bet percentage would suggest to me that you are probably an aggressive post flop player. You will see that the average Loose/Aggressive/Aggressive player loses at the rate of over 3 Big Bets/100 (6 Big Blinds / 100) - so just by the way you are playing, you're making it tough for yourself. I would be convinced that if you tightened up your starting hand selection, you would see an improvement in results.

[Paul176]

Re: A harsh introduction to cash - Continue or rethink my strategy? Double post

[Paul176]

Re: A harsh introduction to cash - Continue or rethink my strategy? Thanks GaF and ubermonkey1... the benchmarking is interesting to say the least. The opponents are definately random at the micro stakes if nothing else! No doubt about that. I've had a second rethink. I think the root cause of my problem was bankroll. I had 10 buyins as opposed to 20 but additionally It was scared money. Not in that I couldn't lose it - I have lost more in other ventures without batting an eyelid but rather I really didn't want to. I'm not a big fan of losing and dumping money at 0.05/0.10 feels like losing bigstyle. There is more to scared money than 'playing beyond your means'. Its what you're comfortable with. I also switched to Devilfish and got some rakeback (which is nice at any level - you get more than you would think) and also dropped to 0.02/0.04 euro stakes (not a big drop given the state of the euro and the dollar). As stupid as this sounds the lower numbers make me care less about losses :rollin I ran even for the first 350 hands or so including a terrible moment where for some reaosn I felt my opponent was going to fold to a reraise all in on the flop (Ace high vs. trips is generally not a good situation). After 1k hands I'm now running at 22.05 BB/100 on pokertracker. Obviously its a small sample and I expect it to drop but better to be up than down! I've done that at 19/14. I think tightening up is even more important at these levels because a lot of players rarely if ever raise therefore if you raise a hand like K10 on the button with three limpers there is a huge chance of being dominated by KQ, KJ (I have also seen players who do not raise AK). There are situations where you can but if you make it a rule that you're going to punish limpers I think you are liable to run into trouble. You end up betting three streets for value with top pair and a good kicker while they check to you then click 'call' three times. Running multiple tables (as opposed trying to concentrate on one and getting bored) has also been a good move. Seems you were right GaF tightnening up has led to a big improvement :tongue2 Also one note on the randomness ubermonkey there is often a pattern to their madness which you do figure out with a little hand reviewing and patience. For example there are a reasonable number of players at these levels (I presume at 0.5/0.1 levels too) who post flop follow these rules. With no hand fold, with a pair (any pair) call pot sized bets and with top pair or better bet/raise. It can be costly when you bet into them for two or three streets but once you identify them they are a gold mine. They're even more valuable as noone else seems to notice (and at times they even win money) as opposed to the terrible players who just get busted. You can get so much value in with top pair top kicker its untrue. Posted a hand underneath to illustrate it. Game # 1171909611 - Texas Hold'em No Limit EUR 0.02/0.04 - Table "Ypenburg" Players(max 6): jp_qqqq (EUR 3.22 in seat 1) MOMO9 (EUR 9.08 in seat 2) anapm (EUR 0.88 in seat 3) marcello62 (EUR 14.38 in seat 4) yaster999 (EUR 1.92 in seat 5) Paul176 (EUR 3.92 in seat 6) Dealer: MOMO9 Small Blind: anapm (0.02) Big Blind: marcello62 (0.04) Paul176 was dealt: Ac - 9d yaster999 Fold Paul176 Raise (0.16) jp_qqqq Call (0.16) MOMO9 Call (0.16) anapm Call (0.14) marcello62 Call (0.12) Flop 2s - 6c - 9h anapm Check marcello62 Check Paul176 Bet (0.60) jp_qqqq Fold MOMO9 Fold anapm Fold marcello62 Call (0.60) Turn 2s - 6c - 9h - 5d marcello62 Check Paul176 Bet (1.50) marcello62 Call (1.50) River 2s - 6c - 9h - 5d - 7c marcello62 Check Paul176 All-In (1.66) marcello62 Call (1.66) Paul176 shows: Ac - 9d (a pair of Nines) marcello62 shows: 2c - 3c (a pair of Deuces) Paul176 wins: EUR 7.92 (with a pair of Nines) Rake: EUR 0.40 :cow was pleased with this as it came from a read and I doubled through with a pair of 9s! (was actually only getting my monies back though we'd got all in preflop about 10 minutes ago and his Kh 4h beat my QQ with a flush :@) Wow that was a longer post than I intended - who would had thought there couldnt be so much to say about such low limits!

[GaF]

Re: A harsh introduction to cash - Continue or rethink my strategy? Nice one - sounds like you're making good progress :ok

[ubermonkey1]

Re: A harsh introduction to cash - Continue or rethink my strategy? nice one:ok yeah some players at this level will make big mistakes as i said. if your hitting cards you get paid more often and for more money, if your getting hands like 2nd pair best kicker it's sometimes hard to lay down vs an opponent that could be playing any pair. usually over a little time the best way to play someone like that becomes apparent:ok it doesn't help that i usually only dabble on these levels(mostly building a new account a little)so i have less info than i would higher up:\.

[Paul176]

Re: A harsh introduction to cash - Continue or rethink my strategy? Quick update - been busy lately but I've now played just under 9.5k hands between 5NL and 10NL. Not a large sample but still have a 19ptbb/100 winrate which obviously pleases me! I should be moving up to 20NL today sometime today after the rakeback + bonus goes into my account. Any subtle (or less subtle) differences between Devilfish 10NL and 20NL noticed by the benchmarkers would be useful and greatly appriecated! Thanks in advance :clap

[GaF]

Re: A harsh introduction to cash - Continue or rethink my strategy? Afraid the benchmarking at Devilfish never got off the ground :sad 19 PTBB/100 is a fantastic rate over 9.5k hands - you're crushing it - good luck at 20NL :hope

[Paul176]

Re: A harsh introduction to cash - Continue or rethink my strategy? Shame that GaF - it was a good idea! Certainly helped me looking through some of the threads. Plus shame because while I haven't got much to compare it to Devilfish feels soft.

[Paul176]

Re: A harsh introduction to cash - Continue or rethink my strategy? Well 2k hands and its been up and down to basically breakeven. 5 buyins up until yesterday and I've hit a horrid run. QQ against AA once and KK once, AK in against QQ and JJ once each. Hurts more at 20NL! Ah well things can only get better!

[Nade]

Re: A harsh introduction to cash - Continue or rethink my strategy?

Vol. Put £ In From SB: 45.00%

One of the biggest leaks in 6max seems to be playing too many hands in the blinds, i'm not sure if the above is 45% VPIP but i'd say the most profitable thing is to only play like the top 15% in the blinds as its easier to not leak money by cutting down the hands you play out of position. (personally noticed a huge difference in loss making from the blinds when i cut the VPIP from 20% in the BB to 10% then the SB from 25% to 15%, seriously the losses were cut in half. Profits? i'd love to know how to make profits in the blinds :\ But tend to play near over 40% of hands on the button and lil less in CO these days as people seem to play so nitty. VPIP/PFR of 31/18 seems kind of funky at least if you raise more it will be more fun too ;) just limp like 5% less often and those stats are quite nice, a lot more fun than all the 13/10s i see every day ... edit - (who take my money as they always get aa v kk etc, they live the good life like the waltons round an open log fire)

[JulioArca]

Re: A harsh introduction to cash - Continue or rethink my strategy?

One of the biggest leaks in 6max seems to be playing too many hands in the blinds' date=' i'm not sure if the above is 45% VPIP but i'd say the most profitable thing is to only play like the top 15% in the blinds as its easier to not leak money by cutting down the hands you play out of position. (personally noticed a huge difference in loss making from the blinds when i cut the VPIP from 20% in the BB to 10% then the SB from 25% to 15%, seriously the losses were cut in half. [/quote'] Wow - just checked my VPIP from SB and it is over 46% but BB is only 12% - think I will try a little adjustment on that ! :beer

[Paul176]

Re: A harsh introduction to cash - Continue or rethink my strategy? Yeah I've reduced my SB VPIP considerably. Its still a little higher than I would like but I'm winning money after my blind losses so I will settle. Its just a rotten position SB. Pleased to say things have continued to go well. Moved to Boss Media and $50NL but have been very busy so not got in too many hands. Over the 6k hands I've been 8BIs up back down to breakeven and am now back up to 8BIs up so I'm kind of hoping things will settle down! :hope Just trying to get some more hands in now.

[Nade]

Re: A harsh introduction to cash - Continue or rethink my strategy? Well done, keep it up and you'll be at 100nl in no time :ok