GaF Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 How do you play QQ here? It's a 90 player $2 SnG and in general the standard is pretty poor. Middle position open raises to 6xBB. I have only seen 8 hands at the table and he has not raised pre flop before. The cut off cold calls for 20% of his stack! I think some players would discount AA or KK from the initial raiser because of the overbet - I'm not so confident - I know that at this stage of a tournament, I can overbet like that to reduce the implied odds on offer (and also because of the level be confident of getting calls from worse hands anyway). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samba_SamPa Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 8xBB raise... How do you play QQ here? It's a 90 player $2 SnG and in general the standard is pretty poor. Middle position open raises to 6xBB. I have only seen 8 hands at the table and he has not raised pre flop before. The cut off cold calls for 20% of his stack! I think some players would discount AA or KK from the initial raiser because of the overbet - I'm not so confident - I know that at this stage of a tournament, I can overbet like that to reduce the implied odds on offer (and also because of the level be confident of getting calls from worse hands anyway). FYP ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted March 21, 2009 Author Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 8xBB raise... :$ ta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhornet Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 6xBB raise... If you just call, unless a Q high flop comes out you will still have no idea where you are, so either raise or fold. I can't see you folding so a raise to 1000 would be my play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Washman Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 6xBB raise... All-in for me :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 6xBB raise... For $2 i'm pushing and saying a prayer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted March 21, 2009 Author Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 6xBB raise... For $2 i'm pushing and saying a prayer. To be honest, I'm not bothered whether it's a $2 or $200 buy in - my goal is for the best tournament equity decision (regardless of potential profit for time spent) - I only mentioned it was a $2 buy in, because we can infer from that something about the quality of play from the other players. I presume the main reason we're (AJ and Washy) talking of shoving such a deep stack is because we are out of position? - if we are on the button, I presume neither of you would shove? HH - what's your plan if the initial raiser reraises you all in (and cold-caller folds)? What about if you call and the flop comes: -3 undercards to your QQ? or -an Ace and 2 undercards? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted March 21, 2009 Author Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 6xBB raise... What kind of ranges do you put the Villains on as well? Are they strong or weak? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 6xBB raise... I'm pushing because you said the standard was poor and I think i'm ahead of his range which I put as 88+ AQ, AK. It's plus EV I think If you flat call his bet, I think we need to put a 2/3 pot sized bet out there, regardless on most flops, only time I don't do this is if the board comes out paired or there is a queen on it. If I hit serious resitance on a board with 3 undercards, esp if there is a dangerous straight or flush possibilites I run away. If there is a queen on the board I slow play and let him hang himself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samba_SamPa Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 6xBB raise... I am raising here to ~750 to keep the Ace-x and mid PP hands in. If the flop comes an Ace (and no Queen) then I have no qualms in check folding as I would be fairly confident I was then behind, and by raising to just 750 I think you hit the balance between building the pot with the best hand with leaving yourself enough back to fold if the best hand stops being the best hand. I don't like shoving all in at this juncture. If the Ace-X fish aren't going to fold their Ace pre-flop, then you're giving them all 5 cards to hit their Ace and not giving yourself the leeway to get away from the hand. If the flop comes J-hi then (providing the 2 involved already have called and there's 2290 in the hand and you have 1600 left) I am shoving. If they fold, good, they're not getting the 4th and 5th cards to hit their Ace. But they could also call with AJ and you're big favourite for a big pot. And I don't like just calling as you've likely got the best hand so you need to be building the pot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Washman Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 6xBB raise... TBH, your position doesn't really bother me - I'm shoving in any position after that action: 1. You have the 3rd best possible starting hand. 2. In any tournament, your aim is to make chips early from the bad players. 3. Initial raiser has bet 6xBB, other player has called this - why worry about playing post flop, when chances are at least one, if not both, will call. Giving you a great chance to at least double up. As for villians hands, I'm not worried about initial raiser, guessing he has a mid-pair or big ace. Unlikely to bet so big with a better hand than yours. Caller I'm not sure about, but as I said, in early stages most people want to build a stack, so he could have anything. If that anything is AA or KK, then its off to the next game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samba_SamPa Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 6xBB raise... TBH, your position doesn't really bother me - I'm shoving in any position after that action: 1. You have the 3rd best possible starting hand. 2. In any tournament, your aim is to make chips early from the bad players. Agreed, but should this not be done with more, I don't know, 'care' than by shoving here? Survival is also key in a tournament - probably to a greater extent? You shove you double up you have more chips, but this is 20/40 level so does little for your overall chance of winning. Whereas you shove you get outdrawn you have no chips, this does a lot for your chances of not winning. 3. Initial raiser has bet 6xBB, other player has called this - why worry about playing post flop, when chances are at least one, if not both, will call. Giving you a great chance to at least double up. Surely if you view the opposition as weak, you want to be playing postflop against them as that is where your edge will be greater? As for villians hands, I'm not worried about initial raiser, guessing he has a mid-pair or big ace. Unlikely to bet so big with a better hand than yours. Caller I'm not sure about, but as I said, in early stages most people want to build a stack, so he could have anything. If that anything is AA or KK, then its off to the next game. Conversely I am less worried by the caller's hand than by the original raiser's hand. If I had a hand that beat us (AA, KK) then I would only be flatting here very very rarely. In all honesty I am not worried about either of the villain's hands PRE-flop - I think we're ahead. It's all very well saying shove here and get your chips in while you're ahead, but I don't think that tells the whole story and isn't the most +EV action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted March 21, 2009 Author Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 6xBB raise... Ok - cheers for the views guys - interesting stuff :ok I didn't like the all in, it was too big a bet. I didn't like a raise - I thought I was too vulnerable to a bluff in the event of an overcard I didn't like a call - it's just so passive And I definitely wasnt folding!! So I was a bit stuffed - there were no options left :lol :lol :lol :lol So I was paralysed through uncertainty and ended up just calling :$ I'll start a new thread in a few mins on how to play it post flop, given the pre flop call. I'm interested that Washy and AJ had the thought that they were shoving because the opposition was bad - my thought process, so far as there was, was a little bit reversed to this (and similar to Samba) - because I thought the opposition was bad (worse than me), I wanted to small ball and play smaller pots - especially as I wasnt in any way short stacked yet - I didn't want to put all my chips in and leave it to a race (I'm only 70%-30% against a rag ace). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted March 21, 2009 Author Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 6xBB raise... because I thought the opposition was bad (worse than me)' date=' I wanted to small ball and play smaller pots[/quote'] Looking over the rest of the hand just now - I think I played it embarassingly poorly from start to finish :$ I think I put too much weight on "controlling the pot size" and played with too much fear of putting my tournament life on the line - I'm still going to put it up step by step - but just want to be clear that now - with time for reflection, there's no way I'd advocate playing the hand the way I did - the fact that I'm putting it up does not mean that I'm proud of the way I played it, or would in any way wish to play it the same way again :$ I do hate this kind of hand - strong hand, but poor situation, so am really interested in the thoughts of others in the circumstance (moreso than the feedback on what you thought of the way I played the hand :$) :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Washman Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 6xBB raise... Its the early stages of an MTT, and you have the chance of trebling up, and giving yourself a great chance to cash. At this stage I'm guessing your shove is called 80% of the time - your going to win a big pot most times. 20% of the time, you take down the pot there and then. Supposing you just call or raise? If an A or K flops, you have to let the hand go to any bet. If the flop is no help to the villians, they fold to your post flop bet. Surely the shove is the best +EV option in the long run? Of course, sometimes you'll lose when called, but that can happen whatever your edge over others if you see the flop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samba_SamPa Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 6xBB raise... I like probing the mindset of others with contrasting views to my own - not because I insist I am right and you are wrong - just so I can better understand your reasoning (I know my own). Does the fact this is a $2.20 MTT have any bearing on the decision to shove, or would you definitely do the same at Level 2 of a say GUKPT £1065 event? If an A or K flops, you have to let the hand go to any bet. If the flop is no help to the villians, they fold to your post flop bet. The reasoning you give for shoving is the same as mine for reraising and not shoving :) Although I understand the reasons for shoving, I don't see how shoving can be better than reraising. My reasons for that are you're handing your tourney future over to chance rather than controlling it yourself. If they're as likely to call a shove as a reraise, then by just reraising you're retaining the opportunity to get away from the hand IF an overcard flops. As for which is the most +EV numbers-wise I'd be interested to know Accepting that we may differ on villain's possible hand ranges, and also accepting for the fact one, or both, may fold to a shove with part of the ranges I have allotted them, I would want to be sure I was more than a 54/46 favourite to win the hand before I was shoving preflop, otherwise it's just an unnecessary gamble in my opinion. equity win tie Hand 0: 53.683% 53.19% 00.49% { QcQs } Hand 1: 27.433% 26.37% 01.07% { 77+, A7s+, ATo+ } Hand 2: 18.884% 18.08% 00.81% { JJ-77, A7s+, KQs, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, ATo+, KQo, QJo, JTo } Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted March 22, 2009 Author Share Posted March 22, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 6xBB raise... I would want to be sure I was more than a 54/46 favourite to win the hand before I was shoving preflop, otherwise it's just an unnecessary gamble in my opinion. Remember the pot is offering better than 2-1. So you are 54% to treble up. I dont think it is as straightforward as to say "I wont risk my tournament if I am 46% to be eliminated" - at some point, the potential rewards become large enough that the risk is worthwhile.....the question is - where is that point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samba_SamPa Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 6xBB raise... Remember the pot is offering better than 2-1. So you are 54% to treble up. I dont think it is as straightforward as to say "I wont risk my tournament if I am 46% to be eliminated" - at some point, the potential rewards become large enough that the risk is worthwhile.....the question is - where is that point? I'm not saying "I won't risk my tournament if I am 46% to be eliminated" - rather there is a better alternative way to proceed - imo. The buy-in becomes an important factor imo. In a $2.20 MTT if I reraise and one or both villains shove then I am calling - I think I am ahead and will take those 2/1+ odds for what I think is a 54/46 chance. In a £1065 GUKPT, however, I don't think Villain is going to 4bet shove with a hand I am beating, and I have allowed myself to get away from the hand with 40xBBs left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Washman Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 6xBB raise... Samba - I'd shove in this situation in a lot of games, but probably not in a GUKPT :rollin The main reason being online if you bust out, you can just reg for the next tourney - in a live event you can't do that. Also, because of the larger stacks, I wouldn't expect a call in the first couple of levels from anything less than KK in a GUKPT or similar, but online it could be anything. When you say my reason for shoving is the same as yours for re-raising, I agree, but...I'm giving myself the opportunity to treble up even if flop doesn't help the villians. Not saying I'm right either, just trying to explain what I'd do :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samba_SamPa Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 6xBB raise... Not saying I'm right either' date=' just trying to explain what I'd do :ok[/quote'] :ok Good debate. And I am guessing there'd be a roughly even split on here as to which way people would go in this situation.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voiceofjoe Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 6xBB raise... Not read others comments - so I may make myself sound like a **** here :$ .... but .... If hes (Initial Rasier) has got AA or KK then its tough - but it looks more akin to a small-medium pair - or weak Ace- than a monster. The other player has a pretty wid(ish) calling range based on his stats (I know its only a small sample, but its all we've got to go on :\). I'm thinking not a big pair but probably AT,AJ,AQ,KQ or lesser Pair 88 downwards With a bit of Luck they'll both have an Ace in their hand - So going along with the fact that you'll still have Chips if you lose I'm pushing all-in here OOP and hoping I get both in the Pot - But on the flipside the All-in push may just look like Uber Strength if they've noticed your the 'nit' that we all know ;) - and you may get them both to fold. Either way its win , win :rollin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlydaveLDN Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 6xBB raise... I haven't looked at part 2 of the thread before posting this btw. Wow, I can't believe some of the opinions in this thread. This is just an insta-shove situation. The only way it wouldn't be was if it was a long way into the tournament, and the raiser was an uber-tight nit. You are just so, so, so far ahead of both players ranges. Anyone who thinks you should wait for bigger edges is just deluded. No tournament player in the world has that much of an edge over the rest of the field. One point that I haven't even seen anyone bring up (apologies if I've missed it) is that theres 540 in the pot - you can increase your stack by more than 20% if you shove and everyone folds. Flat call is a horrible option unless you think that the BB is going to squeeze - you're just leaving yourself in a horrible spot on the flop whatever comes (assuming you don't hit a set). An A or K comes you're folding to a bet. Any flop J or lower high you're not really going to get them to committ any chips often enough to make much. Re-raise. This is my most hated option out of the lot. to you're going to put 1/3 of your stack in? He's not going to flat call anyway, so saying you want a chance to get away from it if an A flops is just lunacy, as he's going to fold/shove with these size stacks. I can't believe people are scared of giving people 5 cards to hit their Ace with Ax hands if they call your shove. THIS IS EXACTLY THE SITUATION YOU WANT TO GET YOURSELF IN!!!!! So what if they hit their ace? Who's play is profitable in the long term? Not theirs, that's for sure. Sorry if I'm being a bit over the top, but some of the ideas in this thread just make no sense to me. In summary : ITS AN INSTA SHOVE!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voiceofjoe Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 6xBB raise... Does the fact this is a $2.20 MTT have any bearing on the decision to shove, or would you definitely do the same at Level 2 of a say GUKPT £1065 event? Just read the comments(up to the quote above) now :) and this one doesn't hold water Pete - a GUKPT Event would be deepstacked slow structure. - against a more (supposedly better class of player) - I'd could put a re-raise in here without committing a third of my stack. Or even (maybe preferably) flat call and be able to make/call a bet on the flop without over committing myself. Here a correct (standard) re-raise is committing around a Third of your stack, and pot control has gone out of the window - also remember your OOP so its even more difficult to grab control of the Pot. I may have been tempted to flat call on the Button but in the Small Blind I'm pushing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samba_SamPa Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 6xBB raise... Wow' date=' I can't believe some of the opinions in this thread.[/quote'] -sighs- :eyes well it WAS a good reasoned adult DEBATE!! Clearly. And you seem to be very much the sort of person whose opinion is the right one, and you give no time to those of others. Despite not agreeing with the shove option, I think you will find I haven't dismissed it, indeed I went so far as to say I could understand it - I just thought there was a better option, and explained why I thought that. Maybe you could try the reasoned method next time you have a different opinion? Yeah, Martyn, I know the contrasting examples were a bit (ok, very :tongue2) extreme. My point was Washy had said shoving was the most +EV action, and, as those are the actions you want to be employing at all decisions, then I was just wondering if, if it is the most +EV action, Washy would do the same in a bigger event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlydaveLDN Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 6xBB raise... If you read my post properly I've said exactly why a flat call or re-raise is a horrible play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samba_SamPa Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 6xBB raise... Well, I read your post more as a tabloid-esque sensationalist ship the chips opinion, rather than reasoned debate, but that was just my opinion - not trying to create tension :ok Anyway, I've put the stacks and ranges into an ICM calculator, and there's little difference as to the outcome. Shoving - including both calling, one calling, and neither calling - Expected Chip Stack 3146 Reraising - including villains still shoving and hero calling, one or both villains calling and improving on flop, and one or both villains calling and not improving on flop - Expected Chip Stack 3238 Not trying to use this as justification that my way is right and the other way is wrong, just showing the figures that I got when doing the ICM analysis. Maybe it changes opinions, probably it doesn't :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlydaveLDN Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 6xBB raise... You don't appear to have put both villains folding when you raise into your calculator. Plus they pretty much never flat call your re-raise, it's a shove or fold situation for them, so I don't see those numbers as at all meaningful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samba_SamPa Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 6xBB raise... I don't see those numbers as at all meaningful :lol I didn't imagine you would :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlydaveLDN Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 6xBB raise... Would you not agree that you they hardly ever call here though? Its a clear shove or fold if you re-raise 3x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samba_SamPa Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Re: Deep stack QQ out of poisition facing 6xBB raise... I think the Mid Position original raiser could call, but the cutoff is definitely shoving or folding. I didn't have a problem with your opinion differing from mine, just thought you were too instantly dismissive of an alternative opinion to your own (lunacy, deluded etc :) ). Maybe I am too cautious in wanting the escape route open in case an overcard comes, but in a tournament in the early levels I think that option is justifiable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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