happyhornet Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 This was a hand in the opening level or so in last nights Focus game. I know I played it badly (or at the least, passively) but I am not sure what I should have done. Blinds are 15/30, i have about my starting stack (2500), Washy (the nemesis in the hand) has slightly less but only by a few. UTG+1, I raise to about 75. Everyone folds to Washy who re-raises me to 215, folds back to me. Now, I don't know what Washy's impression of my raise was, I am not the tightest player, so he may not give me credit for a top hand. Equally, he must have a hand (TT+ AJ+ or complete bluff!!) I'm not going to fold (not my style:lol), so should I flat call or re-raise? As the opening line of the thread suggests, I was too passive. I called. The flop comes down QJ4. I check, Washy bets about 75% of the pot and I meekly fold:sad. Again, should I lead out on the flop, or call/raise Washy's bet? Any ideas welcomed!! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Re: AK Out of position I probably let it go preflop bth, but I hate playng hands like this oop. It's very early on, i think you have to let it go, post flop. M is still huge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfaz Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Re: AK Out of position To be honest, the hand isn't badly played imo. I'm calling a 3x re-raise with AK at this early stage. If you 4-bet you were effectively bluffing anyway, and a call wouldn't be bad at all because you can check-call or check-raise any A-x-x or K-x-x flop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodie Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Re: AK Out of position I found you got to play aggressive with this structure personally I'm 4 betting here to around 900 and instant calling any shove by him or if he flats I'm shoving any flop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samba_SamPa Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Re: AK Out of position I'd play it the same in the early levels I think, except I'd open for 90-100. I'd certainly just call the 215 though, after all you do just have Ace-high and I wouldn't be wanting to be playing a big pot OOP with Ace-high [i actually folded AK utg+1, having re-raised the utg, in a later level - to LAGgy ;) Woodie's all in shove from the hijack]. On that flop, at that level, I'm check-folding also. There's just no need to be fancy at that stage of the tourney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfaz Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Re: AK Out of position I just couldn't 4-bet this hand........against any decent opponent, you are just bluffing. At best you will be up against QQ and you're behind. Especially so early in the tournament!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodie Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Re: AK Out of position I don't understand when you say your bluffing with ak pre flop? please explain. Why not get it all in pre flop with ak now? the majority of people will go all in with ak in a few levels time why not on level one with this fast structure? if you loose always more games... When he 3bets you I think we can put him on 10+ you 4bet I think any decent player would put you on kk+ at this stage so the decision would be on him if he wants to put all his chips on the line. His bet on flop looks standard I'd prob call and see the turn and look to take it away from him after this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivrd Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Re: AK Out of position So was my play bad last night on Devilfish ? for those that were on my table. Button raised to 75, i re-raise from the BB with AK, then the flop was Q x K, i lead out with a bet a get called i think, turn was a blank so i put in a large bet get raised so i then re-raised all in as basically committed. Only for Nic to turn over a set of Q's. I know it was very early on but was it such a bad play ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avongirl Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Re: AK Out of position Equally, he must have a hand (TT+ AJ+ or complete bluff!!) Washy? I'd say complete bluff, and he reckons you missed the flop. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samba_SamPa Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Re: AK Out of position So was my play bad last night on Devilfish ? for those that were on my table. Button raised to 75, i re-raise from the BB with AK, then the flop was Q x K, i lead out with a bet a get called i think, turn was a blank so i put in a large bet get raised so i then re-raised all in as basically committed. Only for Nic to turn over a set of Q's. I know it was very early on but was it such a bad play ? You didn't need to play for your entire stack with only TPTK in the earliest level though? Obviously without exact bet sizes it's hard to comment - but I don't get the oft used "basically committed" line... If you think you're behind and drawing (very) thin, then rather preserve the stack you do have left than throw good chips after bad chips. What was he going to have, raising and calling pre-flop, calling on the flop, and reraising you on the turn, that you could beat? I don't think any King you beat is doing this KJ and down would likely fold pre-flop and would know they were beaten if not on the flop then on the turn. What unpaired Ace would call you pre-flop 3bet? AJs+ AQo+ (maybe)? No way AJ fires back on the turn even if they called on flop chasing straight. AQ's the only possible Ace I think - and I would know I was behind by this time and wouldn't reraise on turn with 2nd pair. Any pair other than Aces or a pair that has made a set isn't betting as aggressive as this either in the early stages. From the betting I don't see a possible hand Villain held that you were beating, so you should have accepted defeat when reraised on the turn, and worked the stack you had left (though without knowing sizes...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfaz Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Re: AK Out of position I don't understand when you say your bluffing with ak pre flop? please explain. Why not get it all in pre flop with ak now? the majority of people will go all in with ak in a few levels time why not on level one with this fast structure? if you loose always more games... When he 3bets you I think we can put him on 10+ you 4bet I think any decent player would put you on kk+ at this stage so the decision would be on him if he wants to put all his chips on the line. His bet on flop looks standard I'd prob call and see the turn and look to take it away from him after this. Ok, you say you don't understand why it is a bluff, but then you say later exactly why it is. You say 4betting makes the villain think we have KK+, and we don't, so we are representing a stronger hand than what we have. Hence it is a bluff. Also, you don't want to be called. If called, surely we are beat by AA, KK or maybe QQ at best. So we don't want a call - we are bluffing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sugleh Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Re: AK Out of position Abo the RIVRD hand: I know I would have a hard time laying down AK there on the turn. However all the indication is that AK is beaten. Villain calls a reraise pf, calls a cbet on a dangerous board and raises on the turn... Recently I saw this theorem which I think is not a bad one and absolutely applies here. The "Baluga Theorem" or the BalugaWhale Theorem. “You should strongly re-evaluate the strength of one-pair hands in the face of a raise on the turn.†More on the Baluga Theorem: http://www.thepokerbank.com/baluga-theorem.html and http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=ssplnlpoker&Number=6605819&f Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heniek31 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Re: AK Out of position Theres nothing wrong with your play horny. Re raise is pretty small, so no problem calling here. After the flop, check-fold to bet. On to next hand :ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avongirl Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Re: AK Out of position Am I the only one reraising all-in to Washy's stealing bluff then? :tongue2 (this is the imaginary me I'd like to be at the tables, in reality I'm folding. :ok) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisa Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Re: AK Out of position PF raise is too small. Minimum should be 3x the BB. Your opponent may have sensed weakness and 3betted you but as played, I'd have folded on the flop. Still early and you don't want to cripple your stack early on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodger Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Re: AK Out of position Being first to act after the flop a 3/4 pot bet of around 300 would have been enough to show you where you stood. If Washy has nowt he'll fold...if he calls you are in problem area if you miss the turn...if he raises you get out. Mind you I seem to shed chips regularly in this situation so maybe I'm not the best person to listen to, although it is what I would have done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfaz Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Re: AK Out of position PF raise is too small. Minimum should be 3x the BB. Your opponent may have sensed weakness and 3betted you but as played' date=' I'd have folded on the flop. Still early and you don't want to cripple your stack early on.[/quote'] This would never be the case - you can't see weakness in a 75 raise at this blind level, and if anything it would look strong. But this is definately not a bluff.......why 3-bet to win the 75??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Re: AK Out of position Am I the only one reraising all-in to Washy's stealing bluff then? :tongue2 I would be but only because its washy (we dont call him wishy for nothing you know) Normally I play AK oop passively and would fold but in this case and knowing him as I do, he has a mid pair, asked for info on the flop and would be folding to a re-raise ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Washman Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Re: AK Out of position I wish I could remember what I had to put you all out of your misery :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhornet Posted March 6, 2009 Author Share Posted March 6, 2009 Re: AK Out of position I wish I could remember what I had to put you all out of your misery :lol :lol:lol:lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avongirl Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Re: AK Out of position I would be but only because its washy (we dont call him wishy for nothing you know) Normally I play AK oop passively and would fold but in this case and knowing him as I do, he has a mid pair, asked for info on the flop and would be folding to a re-raise ;) :cow finally someone agrees with me in a stategy thread. :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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