seanfaz Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 A hand came up tonight where i made a call which i can't decide was ok or if it was bad....... It was £1/£3, with a £6 straddle. There were two callers, i limped behind on the button with 6d 4d, and the blinds called. The flop came 5d 7d 9h. The straddler bet out £20, he was called and i was about to raise when the player to my right moves all in for £196...... i tanked, eventually calling but hating it and the other two players folded. The turn brought a 5 and the river a 10, he showed 9 10 to take the pot. Odds wise there was about £266 in the pot and i had to call £196, so i had around 1.3/1, so i needed around 45% equity against his range. He was a loose player who overplayed his hands and liked to bluff alot, so i can say his range was quite wide. Even if i did have equity, that £200 is around 2% of my bankroll, and it was a very marginal call. Given that it is 1/50th of my bankroll, should i be calling here? I'm aiming this question specifically at experienced cash game players who have survived for a long time making money in the game, but all other answers welcome too.....:ok Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Re: Open ended straight flush draw I think the call is just about +EV has you have a lot of outs. Was it right in terms of the game and bankroll ? I don't consider myself qualified to answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomahawk1984 Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Re: Open ended straight flush draw I think a lot of players on here would struggle to get away from a straight flush draw on the flop. Firstly I think he played the hand pretty poorly. But I think a decent player would have a range like AA-99, 77, 55 and then maybe AXdiamonds and maybe some suited connectors like 97, 75, 95 and then A9s/os Player1: 6d4d Player 2: 99+,77,55,AdKd,AdQd,AdJd,AdTd,Ad9d,Ad8d,Ad6d,Ad4d,Ad3d,Ad2d,97s,95s,75s, A9s, A9o equity win tie Hand 0: 49.707% 49.30% 0.4% Hand 1: 50.293% 49.89% 0.4% Maybe you know something about this player that would maybe increase the range a bit more bit or maybe even decrease it. Personally I would really be tempted to call and for 1/50th of your bankroll I think the call is reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Re: Open ended straight flush draw A hand came up tonight where i made a call which i can't decide was ok or if it was bad....... It was £1/£3, with a £6 straddle. There were two callers, i limped behind on the button with 6d 4d, and the blinds called. The flop came 5d 7d 9h. The straddler bet out £20, he was called and i was about to raise when the player to my right moves all in for £196...... i tanked, eventually calling but hating it and the other two players folded. The turn brought a 5 and the river a 10, he showed 9 10 to take the pot. Odds wise there was about £266 in the pot and i had to call £196, so i had around 1.3/1, so i needed around 45% equity against his range. He was a loose player who overplayed his hands and liked to bluff alot, so i can say his range was quite wide. Even if i did have equity, that £200 is around 2% of my bankroll, and it was a very marginal call. Given that it is 1/50th of my bankroll, should i be calling here? I'm aiming this question specifically at experienced cash game players who have survived for a long time making money in the game, but all other answers welcome too.....:ok Cheers Open ended straight flush draws are commonly overplayed. I do not die with hold 'em draws personally. I pass here because it's possibly that, in the 4-way pot, you're drawing dead to 2 cards (straight flush). There could be a made straight already (I know the raiser is loose but we have the other players to worry about) plus a higher flush draw, and once there is £450 in the pot no one is passing a better flush draw. Plus if anyone has trips there are re-draws if you hit obviously. Against, a lot of hands though, you are getting correct odds - plus there is also the point that the pot could get bigger still given two players are still to act. If this was heads up and I was shown his hand it would be correct to PASS if you're playing above your means financially. Odds are only relevant if you're playing within your means financially, I'm pleased to see you are. As it's only for 2% of your bankroll then the call isn't terrible- that is the key point here for me. The fact that it's only 2% of your tank is your saving grace. I've dug out something I wrote on the subject years ago - will post it under a new post in order to not ruin this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfaz Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 Re: Open ended straight flush draw Cheers guys, yeah i really wanted to fold but wasn't getting any cards in the session and so i called. Oh well......could have been worse..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodie Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Re: Open ended straight flush draw i tanked, eventually calling but hating it and the other two players folded. The turn brought a 5 and the river a 10, he showed 9 10 to take the pot. Cheers God live players are so bad lol! I had a similar hand on tuesday live. Playing 1/2 4 handed wi7th 86h raised pot am in the bb so call 3 way flop comes 9h 7h and qd so obviously I'm massive, guy bts pot I re raise he shoves I instant call as you do he turns over q5 and I miss all my outs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfaz Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 Re: Open ended straight flush draw God live players are so bad lol! I had a similar hand on tuesday live. Playing 1/2 4 handed wi7th 86h raised pot am in the bb so call 3 way flop comes 9h 7h and qd so obviously I'm massive, guy bts pot I re raise he shoves I instant call as you do he turns over q5 and I miss all my outs... But this is such an argument for folding the straight flush draw - the game is so beatable that i needen't get it in with 50% equity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomahawk1984 Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Re: Open ended straight flush draw But this is such an argument for folding the straight flush draw - the game is so beatable that i needen't get it in with 50% equity. I think you're answering your own question here and if you were in the same spot today in the same game I would be confident you would pass and find better spots to get their money. This thread and Billy's thread have got me really thinking about this kind of situation, I don't think I could have passed before but I would really consider it now, especially if I had a low straight flush draw, maybe some thing like kjs on a qtx board would be different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Re: Open ended straight flush draw But this is such an argument for folding the straight flush draw - the game is so beatable that i needen't get it in with 50% equity. Absolutely. This is the exact point of my other thread. I've been lambasted for those beliefs (on here also) in the past, but always believed not pushing edges is right for me, and plenty of players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfaz Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 Re: Open ended straight flush draw Absolutely. This is the exact point of my other thread. I've been lambasted for those beliefs (on here also) in the past, but always believed not pushing edges is right for me, and plenty of players. I think the point is not that this kind of style doesn't push edges, but that it seeks bigger edges with less risk but still has a big payoff. In many games i think it actually makes mathematical sense to fold these hands, because you can use that same money which you will lose 48% of the time in other, more profitable situations if that makes sense...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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