The Need To Adapt

[billy the punter]

Is it necessary? Firstly, I'd like to say that when I've play online tourn's full time I do well. I only play for spells though (not 12 months/year). My first effort during the summer of 2007. I spent around 4 months on Ladbrokes (90% touns). I had success but struggled at certain times, it soon became apparent that my results were less impressive; a) during the day b) at weekends So after the first couple of months I played only Mon-Thu and from 6pm onwards. A lot of the top Laddies tourn players did the same. Late in 2007 I decided to put poker on the back burner, I just felt it was affecting the racing side of things due to time etc - it was aided by the fact that Laddies had planned to scrap their monthly leaderboards which at the time which were an easy £1200+ every month (on top of your winnings). So since then I've come and go with regards to poker, playing live mainly and every now and again on betfair (betfair due to convinience). Usually cash and SnG's as they are ideal when you're not playing extensively. I really believe to make MTT's consistently pay (ie a living) you need to play many tourns a week. However when the snow came the other week I found myself twiddling my thumbs for a few days and started playing MTTs full time on betfair. Until this time I'd not been totally happy with betfair poker (those that play will know why :loon) - but as I'd hoped, as I was playing MTT's for about 6 hours a night, I had great success. So much so, that even after the snow had thawed I continued - I couldn't afford not to! It's been three weeks now and again, despite comfortably making profits, my results are better at certain times. My Saturday night results are terrible - average Saturday winnings are 9% of the average midweek winnings. Quite a difference. Although my Sunday results are slightly better, all winnings were from tourns after 11pm. Daytimes are a similar story, Ladbrokes it was a waste of time and I've only played a handful of daytime tourns - but it's a similar story. I don't want to turn this into a bad beat thread but I jsut want to tell what just happened in the two daytime tourns I played today. a) 2nd level, I make it 175 (BB 50) with KQx UTG+1. BB calls with T3o, flop T3K. Thankfully I manage to survice with 1000 chips left. b) Very next hand (BB now 100), I move in UTG with 88, button cold calls (for half his stack) with 98o and flops a 9. c) Next door, 3rd level or so I call a raise with T9x, we go three handed to the flop. Raiser (with 88) overbets all in on a 34T flop, I call, 3rd player also calls....with A4. Ace river. I know it's boring bad beats but that wasn't the point, I just wanted to explain the level I'm talking about. This is what happens a lot during the day and at weekends. This isn't a rarity. The reason being is the game changes at this time - the players are much, much weaker, once-a-week players and playing total fish (not just fish, absolute mushrooms we're talking about) obviously doesn't suit my tournament style. It's worth noting that the Sunday results improved late at night once the lunatics have gone to bed and finished poker for the week. Obviously you cannot bluff, but bluffing/moving is my edge, any good players edge - so is it any advantage to play against the very worst players? I don't think it is, you want to play against weak/average players - ideally ones that don't know they are bad either! :lol You never want to be against a player who cannot pass. So, I've tried to play ABC, and it still hasn't worked (see above). Is there any way you can adapt and continue to be as successful as you are at other times? Do I want to adap and play a game where showdowns are key? Is it worthwhile? These are questions going on in my head at the moment. My ROI are good enough at other times for me just to forget and give up on weekends. So do you adapt? Or forget the search for perfection and choose just to play at your strengths? What do others think? Do other regular players struggle on certain days (the same as me perhaps)? Do you totally alter your style at said times?

[seanfaz]

Re: The Need To Adapt I think you constantly need to be adapting to opposition, but it is difficult in these kind of games and it can be very boring to just play literally straightforward, transparent poker against players who are completely unpredictable in a bad way. If you want to play these games, you must adapt. If not, why not play on another software at these times?

[Washman]

Re: The Need To Adapt I would agree with you that its harder to make money at weekends from my own experience, but I'm not sure its because there are more bad players. I was interested in the hands you posted and your comment about playing ABC poker (forgive me if I've misquoted, but I think the 3 hands relate to your ABC comment:

a) 2nd level, I make it 175 (BB 50) with KQx UTG+1. BB calls with T3o, flop T3K. Thankfully I manage to survice with 1000 chips left. b) Very next hand (BB now 100), I move in UTG with 88, button cold calls (for half his stack) with 98o and flops a 9. c) Next door, 3rd level or so I call a raise with T9x, we go three handed to the flop. Raiser (with 88) overbets all in on a 34T flop, I call, 3rd player also calls....with A4. Ace river. So, I've tried to play ABC, and it still hasn't worked (see above). quote] Hand a: you raise 3.5xBB from early position with KQ. You're out of position, with a marginal hand. Hand b: a race at best, with everyone still to act. Hand c: you call a raise with T9. Hardly what I would describe as ABC poker - do you think you play differently during weekday evenings when you make money? Personally, I think I play better when I feel good, eg if I've had a good day at work. Also think I may struggle at weekends because I play too much - may start at 11am Saturday and play until early hours of Sunday morning. Do you drink whilst you play - may reflect worse results at weekends??

[GaF]

Re: The Need To Adapt Looking through the benchmarking data I have (accept it's not directly comparable being cash and microstakes) comprising 10 players sharing about 60k hands, then Saturday comes out the most profitable day! The full ranking (most profitable at top, least profitable at bottom): Saturday Thursday Friday Tuesday Monday Sunday Wednesday The top 3 show as profitable, the bottom 4 show as losing. Just a note on my methodology (as it's not flawless, but IMO good enough for an approximation) - I have taken the BB/100 per player per day and then taken a simple average of these numbers (No weighting for volume of hands each player has played).

[billy the punter]

Re: The Need To Adapt

Hand a: you raise 3.5xBB from early position with KQ. You're out of position, with a marginal hand. Hand b: a race at best, with everyone still to act. Hand c: you call a raise with T9. Hardly what I would describe as ABC poker - do you think you play differently during weekday evenings when you make money? Personally, I think I play better when I feel good, eg if I've had a good day at work. Also think I may struggle at weekends because I play too much - may start at 11am Saturday and play until early hours of Sunday morning. Do you drink whilst you play - may reflect worse results at weekends??

Hand a) I raise in any position with KQx (if no one has entered pot of course). b) 50/100 blinds, I have 1000. Am I passing to a reraise if I raise? Of course not, therefore all-in first. This was a turbo by the way. c) More than happy to call a raise with T9x in early levels, in position. Most good tourn players would, I'm suprised you see that as odd play. I'm very decent post flop so can play hands that others find trouble with, JT, T9, KT and the like. Twice here I got it all in massively in front - surely that is ABC poker. By non-ABC I meant moves/subtle plays. Feeling good is important but I don't work so I play the same amount of time no matter what the day. I'm fine with long games and I never drink and play (that should do without saying! ;)). So these wouldn't be reasons behind not feeling good - getting wound up may be behind some poor play, but I'm no tilter so I don't this could be the sole reason. Maybe it's in my mind before I sit down to play and negative thoughts could lead to less than perfect play? Cheers for the feedback. :ok

[billy the punter]

Re: The Need To Adapt

Looking through the benchmarking data I have (accept it's not directly comparable being cash and microstakes) comprising 10 players sharing about 60k hands, then Saturday comes out the most profitable day! The full ranking (most profitable at top, least profitable at bottom): Saturday Thursday Friday Tuesday Monday Sunday Wednesday The top 3 show as profitable, the bottom 4 show as losing. Just a note on my methodology (as it's not flawless, but IMO good enough for an approximation) - I have taken the BB/100 per player per day and then taken a simple average of these numbers (No weighting for volume of hands each player has played).

Saturday and Thursdays are my least profitable. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday the most profitable. :loon We should play tag team.

[AJ]

Re: The Need To Adapt do you have enough data to make the winning / losing data statisically significant ? Could it just be variance ?

[Washman]

Re: The Need To Adapt

Hand a) I raise in any position with KQx (if no one has entered pot of course). b) 50/100 blinds, I have 1000. Am I passing to a reraise if I raise? Of course not, therefore all-in first. This was a turbo by the way. c) More than happy to call a raise with T9x in early levels, in position. Most good tourn players would, I'm suprised you see that as odd play. I'm very decent post flop so can play hands that others find trouble with, JT, T9, KT and the like.

I know I'm drifting away from your original question, but: 1. am interested in your analysis of these 3 hands 2. I have been criticised for not posting enough in strategy ;) 3. Your results this month are outstanding, and always thought from previous posts you were fairly tight. Ok, here goes: Hand a: Does KQx mean its suited? Either way, you say you always raise with this hand in any position if no-one has raised. In this hand its level 2, so almost certainly 9 handed, and you're UTG +1, so only 1 player has acted before you, but you raise 3.5x BB with 7 players to act - personally I'm folding here, but BB call is loose to say the least, so you were unlucky. Hand b: Agree, no way are you passing to a re-raise if you raise, but why the all-in from UTG. Again I am assuming a full table, so you have to get past 8 players. With 88, you are going to be in trouble against any caller, and need to get lucky. Although you're short, you still have at least 9 hands to find a better position, and high cards. Hand c: a player calls pre-flop behind you, so you don't really have position. You get unlucky, but so many hands are beating your T9, both pre and post flop. If blinds are low and you have chips, no problem, but original post is unclear. I don't necessarily see any of you plays as odd - a lot of others on the forum think I play an unusual style - am just trying to understand your thinking a little better :ok

[billy the punter]

Re: The Need To Adapt

I know I'm drifting away from your original question, but: 1. am interested in your analysis of these 3 hands 2. I have been criticised for not posting enough in strategy ;) 3. Your results this month are outstanding, and always thought from previous posts you were fairly tight. Ok, here goes: Hand a: Does KQx mean its suited? Either way, you say you always raise with this hand in any position if no-one has raised. In this hand its level 2, so almost certainly 9 handed, and you're UTG +1, so only 1 player has acted before you, but you raise 3.5x BB with 7 players to act - personally I'm folding here, but BB call is loose to say the least, so you were unlucky. Hand b: Agree, no way are you passing to a re-raise if you raise, but why the all-in from UTG. Again I am assuming a full table, so you have to get past 8 players. With 88, you are going to be in trouble against any caller, and need to get lucky. Although you're short, you still have at least 9 hands to find a better position, and high cards. Hand c: a player calls pre-flop behind you, so you don't really have position. You get unlucky, but so many hands are beating your T9, both pre and post flop. If blinds are low and you have chips, no problem, but original post is unclear. I don't necessarily see any of you plays as odd - a lot of others on the forum think I play an unusual style - am just trying to understand your thinking a little better :ok

More than happy to discuss hands. :ok I have had a good month, although without sounding like an arse I usually do well when playing extensively - I think my game just suits full time play, which is why play poker in fits and starts. I am fairly tight but do mix it more than it looks (which is key). I do like to see flops in small pots, I'm tight in big pots. I tend not to call with hands like 7h8h even in multi-way pots (which is against a lot of people's thoughts) as draws are expensive in family pots for example. a) Yes KQx means suited, KQo is unsuited. Like I say it's a hand I will usually open with. Will only call/reraise positional raises with it, and then only occasionally. I'm definitely not limping with it. With regards to the bet size, in early levels I will always bet the pot, which if opening means 3.5x the blind. A lot of players will call with whole range of hands for smaller raises in level 1/2 as they think "it's only 40/50 chips". People see this as a trouble hand due to kicker trouble when you pair, but with KQ that fear can sometimes be over rated. Due to 99% of players reraising with AK it's profitable long term to go to war when you hit a Kxx flop for example. AJ in a raised pot you have some worries not matter what card you pair. b) With 1000 left, BB 100, turbo mtt, about 100 runners left. This is one fo the times I'm happy to have a 50/50, plus due to the structure I could get a call from a lesser pair (less likely in a regular MTT). I'm all-in with 88 100% of the time here UTG, in this situation. The structure meant you had to gather chips. c) With the T9 I had position on the raiser, this is always key IMO. I know T9 is behind preflop. I would still call if I knew he had AK. It's a call to hit and win a big pot, or outplay post flop. I play well post flop so I'm happy to see a flop or two with live hands in the early levels. You can play the early levels somewhere on the way to how you'd play a cash game. With regards to the post-flop play with this hand I read the bet from the raiser as weak and that his hand is not better than my pair, so it was an insta-call for me, I know there is a player behind but once there is an overbet and a call he should pass plenty of hands (AT and below). :ok

[billy the punter]

Re: The Need To Adapt

do you have enough data to make the winning / losing data statisically significant ? Could it just be variance ?

The betfair stuff is based on just three weeks play - but my memory of sporadic play over the past year backs it up. Not a lot I agree, and I'm not 100% sure about it, which is why I posted in the first place I suppose. I had 3/4 months worth of results from 2007 on Ladbrokes.

[ubermonkey1]

Re: The Need To Adapt i tend to try to play at certain times on certain sites to pick off the pissheads (only if i'm not pissed tho;)) so mainly us based sites like ft and stars i try to play weekend mornings about 6-7am ,then i switch to boss and sj at night. seems to work and i do tend to find some real spewmonkeys going thru their roll with gay abandon:) i do tend to adapt more to the game and play differently at these times dependant on who i'm trying to pick off etc.sometimes i'll loosen up ,sometimes play ultra tag, depends really.however i dont really alter my play on the table much till the fish go .they don't seem to notice what anyone else is doing ,so there seems no point in trying to disguise anything. if i'm playing more of a "straight" game vs more observant opposition then i will be constantly shifting gears to keep my opposition on their toes.so in a way i do adapt more but less, if you see what i mean:unsure

[seanfaz]

Re: The Need To Adapt I dont think any of the hands have been played badly at all - not standard ABC poker in terms of the Gap Concept and all that, but fairly standard. KQx is a raise from any position. 88 shove with 10bbs is standard. 10 9x call in position is good.......you don't have to hit the flop to win, and if you have good post-flop skills, this is how you should play without doubt. Just put it down to bad luck, or don't play at these times, why not try some of the other weekend tournaments........some of the sunday major tournaments?

[kippe6]

Re: The Need To Adapt i find mornings 6am to 12 the best time for small stakes cash, afternoons a waste of time .ive put this down to empty heads and grinders still in bed