morlspin Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Background: My Stack = 28,300 (average 44k) Blinds 2000/4000 Ante 300 Players Remaining 31 (25 paid) Players at table = 8 Majority of table is short with just the 2 stacks above average and a lot of push and fold taking place. With blinds and Antes in pot already the pot before action is 8400 Your BB with :Kc: :Jd: Guy with big stack raises to 11k and its folded round to you as the last player to act, no other action. I decided to call the raise for 7k more and leave myself with the option of folding if an ace or flushed board appeared. I had considered pushing there and then and seeing what the board would bring, as i feel he was calling my reraise of 10k anyway. I hoped for a low raggy flop so i could initate the stop-go and take it down if he wasnt holding a pocket pair. The flop comes :3d::4c::Th: and i pushed, the guy calls and shows me :Qh::Tc: and the turn and river come a blank, im out in 31st and a little dissapointed, but want to know: What would you have done in this situation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 2 from APAT Walsall Stop and go was well executed, he hit the flop so you got screwed over. It happens with this move sometimes, no way to aviod it. But looking at it wider, the problem with your stop and go is that it blatently looks like a stop and go. 18 months ago you could get away with it, but I guess it's a very common move these days and people are more likley to call you with a wider range of hands. If you stop and go'd me in that position I'd call you down with Ace Rag. What would I have done in this situation, not sure depends on my read on the player, it's it's either push or fold. I'm pretty sure it's fold, you still have enough chips to play a hand latter when you have a chance to get your chips in first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy the punter Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 2 from APAT Walsall There is nothing worse than bluffing your way out of a tournament, espeically a big one. I know, I've done it far too many times. You are correct in not pushing pre and he would probably call as he would've been getting around 4/1. You're getting correct odds to call, but you're not really in a position to waste chips by calling for value. The play isn't wrong, think you know that. But I probably fold under these circumstances because with the bubble approaching there could be better opportunities for you to exploit the bubble factor - especially as your table has short stacks. At this time of the tourn it's all about the table/tourn dynamics. If I was the short stack and surrounded by mountains of chips it's a different story. Or even earlier in the tourn, I would've like your play a lot more. I don't know the actual stack sizes but I get the feeling there would've been opportunities to put those in a similar position to you, to the test pre flop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhornet Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 2 from APAT Walsall I think I would have folded pre-flop. You don't have enough chips to call raises unless you are prepared to go all-in (which you were with the stop and go). I'd rather be first in and push with any two than get involved here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voiceofjoe Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 2 from APAT Walsall Tending to agree with the others, if your first in then theres 2 ways to win the pot. Almost certain fold here for me - in an unopened pot it would have probably been a shove Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatch Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 2 from APAT Walsall Where has the guy raised from? Its going to cost you 1/4 of your stack to call here and therefore this should instantly be rules out. As mentioned above the stop n go is so overly used now that people are use to it and call really lightly. We have been slightly results orientated here as its a 10 high board but generally I dont like the play. If the table is full of short stacks and the push fold is generally working, as it should around the bubble then im looking to use this in my favour. I would be folding here and trying to open as many pots here from late position against shorter stacks. From what i saw play was really tight all the time and you could have probably got away with murder around the bubble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 2 from APAT Walsall I have to fold here. I'm not desperately short stacked and only need a double up to get back into it, so why not wait for two hands to pass then use position and the time that another orbit would bring? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 2 from APAT Walsall Fold Preflop. As Billy stated you're going to get called by any shove so I'd wait for a better opportunity. Nothing wrong with the stop n go though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulioArca Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 2 from APAT Walsall Tend to agree with the others here, if you think he will call your shove preflop then you have to think he is going to call post flop. You have no fold equity - pass and wait for a better spot to get the chips in first. I know everyone hates folding to the big stack bully especially in the Big Blind but hey next hand might have been KK :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubermonkey1 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 2 from APAT Walsall yeah i think i'd fold pre as well:ok dont think you have a large enough stack to back up the stop-n-go ,if he hits any part of the flop he would probly call if he's stacked. also the same pre flop, so chances are you won't be getting him to fold:unsure i'd much rather push it in with any 2 on the button i think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george2loose Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Re: Hand 2 from APAT Walsall Fold pre- if your think your ahead just shove- don't like the stop and go. If he has you beat he snaps any flop anyway- the only hand ur making fold on that flop are pure air perhaps KQ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eck Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: Hand 2 from APAT Walsall Fold>>Shove>>>>>>>>>>>>>>call Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulioArca Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: Hand 2 from APAT Walsall Fold>>Shove>>>>>>>>>>>>>>call Is this some new form of Holdem where you get to do all three at once :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glceud Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: Hand 2 from APAT Walsall Is this some new form of Holdem where you get to do all three at once :) Ecks a highroller from Blonde, you get to rerun hands any each way in the high stakes games he sits down at.:eek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eck Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: Hand 2 from APAT Walsall Ecks a highroller from Blonde' date=' you get to rerun hands any each way in the high stakes games he sits down at.:eek[/quote'] LOL smartasses everywhere these days. Out of the three choices i go in that order of preference tbh. Don't think you have a lot of F/E, a decent player would be aware of your stack size and realise he has to call so you are very likely getting called. just depends how active he was tbh e.g if it was Brian get them in in a flash as KJ plays pretty good against someone with a wide range. But never ever calling, would you really have put 11k in and folded with 17k behind if an ace hit?? :puke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosco Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: Hand 2 from APAT Walsall easy fold for me always prefer to be the aggressor than calling. especially as this is the big stack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfaz Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Re: Hand 2 from APAT Walsall You were right not to shove preflop because you just would have gotten called. I think you should have just folded the hand, you could have used that 7k to just apply pressure to other players. If most players are just below average on your table then you should be able to apply a hell of a lot of pressure on the bubble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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