GaF Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Early indications last week were that we were more profitable UTG than on the Button. That indication has been reaffirmed this week. I am currently of the belief that something about the way we are playing UTG is making us more profitable than the way we are playing on the button. I want to see if I can uncover the differences - and this thread is where I'll do it. I dont know where this will take us, but I'll show as much working/data as possible and hopefully our many minds will be able to work it out..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 Re: 200902W2 Benchmarking Focus - Button v UTG Here is a summary of our Button Stats: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 Re: 200902W2 Benchmarking Focus - Button v UTG And here are our UTG stats: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 Re: 200902W2 Benchmarking Focus - Button v UTG So we're playing tighter, and less aggressively UTG than on the Button (as you would expect)...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 Re: 200902W2 Benchmarking Focus - Button v UTG Posts 2 and 3 edited to add some extra stats..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 Re: 200902W2 Benchmarking Focus - Button v UTG Here's the situation when no flop is seen (i.e. a pre flop raise takes it down). This is as expected I think with greater success on the button, so nothin gtoo unusual there.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 Re: 200902W2 Benchmarking Focus - Button v UTG This is the situation where a flop is seen (i.e. you limp pre flop, or your raise sees action). We're making massive profits UTG, but losing from the button. This seems "wrong". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 Re: 200902W2 Benchmarking Focus - Button v UTG This is the situation where a flop is seen and you raised pre flop. Similar situation - massive profits UTG and losses from the button. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 Re: 200902W2 Benchmarking Focus - Button v UTG This is what happens when a flop is seen, and we make no raise pre flop. Profitable in both positions, but more so UTG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 Re: 200902W2 Benchmarking Focus - Button v UTG Ok - so step back up the "tree" a bit. Hands with a PreFlop Raise: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 Re: 200902W2 Benchmarking Focus - Button v UTG Hands where we VP$IP but did not PFR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 Re: 200902W2 Benchmarking Focus - Button v UTG Hands where we did not VPIP: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 Re: 200902W2 Benchmarking Focus - Button v UTG Ok - I'm pausing for breath here - will probably come back to it tomorrow :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staffy Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Re: 200902W2 Benchmarking Focus - Button v UTG wow. some amazing work here matey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posh Punter Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Re: 200902W2 Benchmarking Focus - Button v UTG Nice work GAF. I'm guessing that under the gun the players have some kind of hand to go in, normally a pretty good one. When the flop hits maybe they're still leading or have improved their hands. When on the button, they could be raising with junk and either being scared off when the flop hits, or their continuation bets, with nothing, are called, which lets face it at this level is pretty often. The same calling of bets applies to the better hands UTG, therefore more profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 Re: 200902W2 Benchmarking Focus - Button v UTG If that's the case (and I suspect it is), then tightening up on the button (and playing it as if UTG) will be massively more profitable..... Hopefully more progress on that tomorrow :hope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted February 8, 2009 Author Share Posted February 8, 2009 Re: 200902W2 Benchmarking Focus - Button v UTG The investigation continues.... The biggest difference so far is when we raise/reraise - so I'm going to break that down by when we cbet the flop (v when we dont cbet the flop). Here's the stats when we cbet the flop (CAUTION - We're just looking at 108 hands now for UTG - a very small sample size): Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted February 8, 2009 Author Share Posted February 8, 2009 Re: 200902W2 Benchmarking Focus - Button v UTG Player14 has dropped out of the stats there for UTG with PFR and then a cbet on the flop. I understand that to mean he has never cbet from UTG :loon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted February 8, 2009 Author Share Posted February 8, 2009 Re: 200902W2 Benchmarking Focus - Button v UTG Here are the stats for a PFR where there is no CBet.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonzie14 Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Re: 200902W2 Benchmarking Focus - Button v UTG Confused....how does UTG equate to position 2? :unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted February 8, 2009 Author Share Posted February 8, 2009 Re: 200902W2 Benchmarking Focus - Button v UTG Confused....how does UTG equate to position 2? :unsure 0 = Button 1 = CutOff 2 = UTG It's the distance off of the button - as they're only 5 seat, then 2 off the button is UTG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted February 8, 2009 Author Share Posted February 8, 2009 Re: 200902W2 Benchmarking Focus - Button v UTG I confess I'm a bit lost and directionless with this at the moment - I'm pretty confident that there's a difference between UTG and the Button (greater profitability UTG), but I dont feel I'm getting any closer to explaining why or what we should change (beyond the gut feel that we're too loose and aggressive with the button) :unsure Any suggestions/thoughts appreciated.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonzie14 Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Re: 200902W2 Benchmarking Focus - Button v UTG Just an idea.... Maybe it's because when you raise UTG, people tend to give it more respect...early position raise = big hand (particularly from people with tourney mindset :unsure); whereas when you raise from the button, everyone automatically assumes that there is a v.good chance that it's a steal (which it quite often is ;)) and so they will play back at you. Obviously, people are unlikely to try a steal from the button if UTG has already put a raise in, so maybe stealing from UTG is the way forward :loon. Not sure if this could explain all of the difference that we are seeing between button and UTG profit, but may explain some of it. Or I could be totally wrong...:tongue2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomahawk1984 Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Re: 200902W2 Benchmarking Focus - Button v UTG I'm starting to think very tight is the best tactic for this level. There are many times when I have raised on the button, been called by both blinds, hit a little bit of the flop and have no idea where I am which leads to me making bad choices. If I was raising pre flop with a tighter range then I might be able to make more correct decisions post flop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted February 8, 2009 Author Share Posted February 8, 2009 Re: 200902W2 Benchmarking Focus - Button v UTG Agree there is almost certainly less respect for a raise on the button than a raise utg :ok However I dont think that should be enough to compensate for the loss of the advantage you gain from position :unsure I suspect the "fault" is more to do with the way we are playing the hands.... I think there is a strong argument for why tight at this level may be more successful - howevercomparing the stats so far, the tight players dont seem to be doing better than the looser players :unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlydaveLDN Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Re: 200902W2 Benchmarking Focus - Button v UTG The interesting thing to me is that, as a group, the button stats are 33/18. I'd say that playing a little tigher, and a little more aggressive is the way forward. I'm personally playing 25/22. Obviously you're going to make some flat calls from the button, set mining, or with suited connectors etc. But if you're entering an unraised pot you have to be rasing. And if it's a raised pot, you have to be playing only a polarized range of pairs, AK, suited connectors. Getting involved with KQ, AJ etc just causes trouble, despite the positional advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadlydaveLDN Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Re: 200902W2 Benchmarking Focus - Button v UTG So we're playing tighter' date=' and less aggressively UTG than on the Button (as you would expect)......[/quote'] Although playing tighter is obviously a sound strategy from UTG, I feel like you should be playing more aggressively from UTG in terms of the PFR %. As explained above there's hands that a fine for a flat call on the button (although as you go up levels, 3-betting is a better option). From UTG however, if you're entering a pot, raising is (IMO) the only option. It gives you better chance of getting position, and represents a stronger hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavham Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Re: 200902W2 Benchmarking Focus - Button v UTG Naive of me i know, but i have never used PT, in order for me to understand these threads i need to know what all the abbreviations mean at the top of the charts, are they in a thread somewhere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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