slapdash Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Just some vague thoughts I've been having ... As anybody who's played coolers (double or nothings) knows, there are frequently situations in the later stages of coolers where one player goes all-in and it's almost never right to call him ... but if he knew you were likely to call, then it would be wrong for him to go all-in. For simplicity, consider the following specific situation: On the bubble, roughly equal stacks, high blinds. You're BB and a sensible regular, whom you expect to play against a lot in the future, is SB. It's folded to him. If he shoves, what if you call quite light and let him know that you intend to do this in future (e.g., you say in chat "have to call to stop you stealing")? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Re: Deliberately making bad calls in coolers I can follow your logic :ok I suppose it depends as well what proportion of your games that regular is in - for you at €50 it may be more frequently than for me at €5! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGremlin Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Re: Deliberately making bad calls in coolers If he shoves' date=' what if you call quite light and let him know that you intend to do this in future (e.g., you say in chat "have to call to stop you stealing")?[/quote'] I normally say "sorry, I'm just a stupid fish" :unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGremlin Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Re: Deliberately making bad calls in coolers Or I shout "Cmon river!" ... or maybe I am just a simple fish :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted January 21, 2009 Author Share Posted January 21, 2009 Re: Deliberately making bad calls in coolers I can follow your logic :ok I suppose it depends as well what proportion of your games that regular is in - for you at €50 it may be more frequently than for me at €5! That doesn't really make any difference, so long as you play against him often enough that he'll remember. If you only do this against him, then the games that he's not involved in are irrelevant. I suppose what might happen is that he'll do the same against you. Or he might say "have to shove, to stop you calling to stop me stealing." :D And then you have to call to stop him shoving to stop you calling to stop him stealing. :unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Re: Deliberately making bad calls in coolers All comes down to the difference between this game and the meta game doesn't it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfaz Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Re: Deliberately making bad calls in coolers This would have no effect on your win rate if you play together in the long run. If you are calling light then his fold equity decreases somewhat depending on what range you are calling with (i.e. how often). However although his fold equity decreases, his chance of winning at a showdown increases as he is now up against a much wider range. He can continue to push profitably Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 Re: Deliberately making bad calls in coolers This would have no effect on your win rate if you play together in the long run. If you are calling light then his fold equity decreases somewhat depending on what range you are calling with (i.e. how often). However although his fold equity decreases' date=' his chance of winning at a showdown increases as he is now up against a much wider range. He can continue to push profitably[/quote'] If this were a cash game, then I'd agree absolutely. Don't know if you know what a "cooler" is, though? A 10-player STT where the top 5 win double their buy-in (minus tournament fee). So at the bubble there's an extreme premium on surviving vs. accumulating chips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfaz Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Re: Deliberately making bad calls in coolers But still, his raise all in will always be more profitable than your call in the long run. If this is all long run then equity solely based on hands will be 50% (or near enough). This is assuming you call every time. But by being the raiser he will have fold equity, even if you only fold 1% of the time. Or if you just fold 32off or 72off etc. Also, as a hidden factor which will happen rarely is that you time out or misclick or whatever which again increase the fold equity. This does assume that you have equal stacks and the loser is eliminated. In which case, he will always show more profit (albeit very small) than you because he will make the money just over 50% of the time in that situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 Re: Deliberately making bad calls in coolers Yes,but the point is that if he "knows" that I'll call (a substantial proportion of the time) then that makes it wrong for him to shove. The idea is not that I gain by calling, but that I gain by stopping him from raising in future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfaz Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Re: Deliberately making bad calls in coolers Yes i see what you are saying, but what i am saying is why should it stop him? He has the edge even if he goes all in every time....it is unexploitable. To make it simpler, say it was just the two of you and he is always first to act. If he moves all in every single hand, he cannot lose in the long run......why should he stop. So everytime this scenario appears, he is profitably shoving whatever your calling range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 Re: Deliberately making bad calls in coolers Yes i see what you are saying' date=' but what i am saying is why should it stop him? He has the edge even if he goes all in every time....it is unexploitable. To make it simpler, say it was just the two of you and he is always first to act. If he moves all in every single hand, he cannot lose in the long run......why should he stop. So everytime this scenario appears, he is profitably shoving whatever your calling range.[/quote'] He loses if I call every time. And I lose too. It's the other four players who gain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfaz Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Re: Deliberately making bad calls in coolers Why do you both lose? I thought 5 made the money? In this scenario, your opponent cannot lose as he will make the last 5 50% of the time minimum in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Re: Deliberately making bad calls in coolers In coolers, when you both enter a pot, then you both lose tournament equity. The players who benefit are those not involved in the hand. Take the extreme example - 6 players on the bubble - all with 2500 chips. One player goes all in, and one other calls. All players before the hand have 83% equity in a prize. After the two players go all in, the 4 players not involved have 100% equity in a prize, whilst the two players involved have 50% equity in a prize. If the first player to enter the pot has 22 and the second player has AA, then player 1 has 20% equity and Player 2 has 80% equity. They both started with 83% equity (so Aces are losing out, even though they have an overpair!) In coolers, The Gap and Fold Equity are far far far greater than in standard STTs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfaz Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Re: Deliberately making bad calls in coolers Yes but i'm talking in relation you. I mean that he can never have less equity than you if you are calling every hand, and the player is relentless and doesn't stop shoving, then it is you who is losing the equity. I'm saying that he will make the last 5 more often than not......it may lose equity, but in this scenario, it will still be profitable. I'm saying that the player will still be profitable, even though he is losing some equity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.