Benchmarking - Are YOU ready to crack cash tables?

[GaF]

LINKS Cash Benchmarking FAQ - hand histories http://www.punterslounge.com/forum/f62/cash-benchmarking-faq-hand-histories-79161/#post1291215 Is 2009 to be the year that some of us crack cash poker for the first time? I hope so, hence my change in sig :) And I'm optimistic - all thanks to my latest harebrained scheme :loon Anonymous benchmarking! When we play poker, some things we do generate a profit over time, and other things generate a loss. It's difficult to see which are which because of the problem of variance. Benchmarking will allow us to quickly establish those traits of our game that generate a loss, or, just as importantly, those areas where we dont profit as much as we should, or where we lose more than we should. How will it work? Players will play an unspecified number of hands through the month. Weekly, players will send me their hand history files for import into my poker tracker database. I will anonymise the players alias (players will be called Player01, Player02, etc...) and then I will publish various macro stats (and drill down to other areas of interest). We can then see how we're performing against other players - where they are outperforming us, and where we are outperforming them. Where will it work? The benchmarking is currently running at the Boss (e.g. Pokerkings, Virgin, Paradise etc) tables. Only 5 handed tables and only Euro tables will count. The levels are €0.05/€0.10 and €0.12/€0.25. Anonymity A key focus of this is that players will remain anonymous at all times - you will get feedback without people knowing who you are (you can give yourself feedback without people knowing you talk to yourself :tongue2) and because of this anonymity, your stats will not be assosiated with what is in the public domain. Only you, and I, will know the true identity of "Player007" or Player13 ..... Obviously I'm asking for a huge amount of trust here because you are giving me your entire database on how you play which I could take advantage of. I assure you that I will never do that, however can offer no more than my word - I hope that is enough. I will NEVER share your data (with your alias, or anything I consider can be used to track back to you) with anyone else. Please dont reveal your identity to anyone else, even if it doesnt bother you, and dont ask anyone else their identity, even if you have suspicions - we dont want people to narrow down who certtain players may be - I think the anonymity is critical with so much information out there and I will do everything I can to protect it. Diary To be included in the analysis, please ensure that you have sent hand history files to me (to my email at: pl dot benchmarking at googlemail dot com) by 09:00 GMT each Saturday (I suggest you send your files as soon as you finish your final session of the week, rather than doing it first thing Saturday morning). A month will consist of exactly 4 or exactly 5 weeks with each week running from Saturday to Friday. A month will not be calendar months. At the end of each month I will put up more in depth stats for one of the levels. The Future Obviously this is intended to just be the start. I/We want to develop and evolve - exact plan moving forward will evolve and develop, but some of the ideas I have at the moment are: - "New" players at any stage can join at a level they feel comfortable at (I appreciate not everyone wants to play 5c/10c) - Players should ensure that they are playing at a site where they are receiving rakeback. One possible site is Pokerkings if you downloaded through the PL Link - If PL can obtain sponsorship/deals for players for this project in the future, we may move away from boss altogether, or obligate that hands are played on a specific Boss site (this will be in the players best interests) Why am I so optimistic about this? A group of us have been doing this for Double or Nothing on Pokerstars and the power of it is evident, even though we've barely brushed the surface of what we could do....there are clear weaknesses in looking at tournament chip equity for tournaments (especially tournaments so situationally critical as DoNs) and cash games seem the obvious place to move this to in order to deal solely in $ equities.... Trust me, this should be a huge benefit to everyone who participates :ok Who's it for? Anyone who wants to participate. Dont worry if you dont play Cash currently (you'll benefit more than those who do!). Don't worry if PokerTracker petrifies you. Dont worry if stats startle you. How do you sign up Best way to sign up is to send me a PM expressing your interest - I'll reply with your anonymous alias :ok Ok - that's a long post - I'm sure I've forgotten stuff - so will come back and edit it as I think of things :ok If anything isn't clear or you have questions - fire away :ok

[GaF]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables? One piece of clarification - by PMing me expressing a wish to participate, it doesnt obligate you to play the hands or do X hours cash play - if you dont manage enough hands, it simply means that your results wont be reported (though maybe they'll be reported - we dont want to exclude losing results but include winning results :unsure - That will skew our data) - so no worries from that perspective if you're unsure if you can manage enough hands during the month :ok Also if you're losing/doing worse than you hoped - you can stop playing at any time - you're not obligated to complete the month. Only thing I would ask - for your sake and for all our sakes - please be honest and complete - no "cherry picking" your hands - please send me all hands that you participate in at that level over the month - we need a complete sample if we are to learn! You should send me all the hands you play at the limit over the month.

[GaF]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables? I should add - rakeback is only earnt at Pokerkings (and Boss wide)if you rake over €100 (for €30 rakeback) in the month. This is a network rule.

[GaF]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables? The following players have signed up :tongue2 Player01 Player02 Player03 Player04 Player05 :ok

[GaF]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables? How to find Hand History files (taken from PokerTracker forum)

 

For anyone else having problems not seeing this new hand history folder here is what to do to make it visible... 

For anything other than Vista the folder being used is going to be: 
C:\Documents and Settings\\Local Settings\Application Data\ 
========================================================================= 
From your desktop double-click on the "My Computer" icon. 
On the window that opens, under the Tools menu select "Folder Options". Click on the "View" tab and then check the box that says "Show hidden files and folders" and then click on the "Apply" button. 

For VISTA - the folder where the files will be stored is going to be: 
C:\Users\\AppData\Local\ 
============================================================== 
right-click on the Start menu and select Explore. 
Click on Organize > Folder and Search Options 
On the next window, click on the View tab and then check the box that says "Show hidden files and folders" and then click on the "Apply" button. 

If you run PokerTracker yourself, then these files probably get archived somewhere else (check you PT import options to know where :ok)

[PGremlin]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables? Why must it be micro stakes (€0.05/€0.10) five seat tables on Boss network?

[AJ]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables? I guess for consistant benchmarking you need to play the same games :unsure Apples and apples and all that eh ?

[GaF]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables?

Why must it be micro stakes (€0.05/€0.10) five seat tables on Boss network?

I want us all to play the same game in order to maximise the comparability of the stats - if we're playing different games on different sites or at different levels, then the benchmarks are non comprable. That is the main reason. Within that, for this month, the choice was pretty arbitrary - however additional factors I considered: -Pokerkings (and other Boss sites) have been great long term supporters of PL players with added value and it's good to be able to try and return some of that investment they've made in us by directing some traffic towards them. -PT3 compatability was a must - Most established analysis of short handed cash is 6-max - resource material remains scarce for 5 handed, so I feel there should be an added opportunity to work out an edge in our analysis of that - I think the majority of PLrs have funded boss accounts - far more so than any other network Another factor (though this is far less of a driver than those above) - if we can direct traffic, rather than just anyone playing anywhere, then we can hopefully get some sites at some stage to offer some kind of added value for the players - if we have 20 players guaranteed to play a minimum of 5k hands in a month, then that's attractive for poker sites! (we need to see how succesful this is, how well supported it is and who knows what PL can sort out for us :hope). Why micro stakes? Its the starting point - I hope that will expand to other stakes quickly - primarily I view this is a good place for tournament players to get a grounding in cash games - new cash game players should only really be looking to start at micro stakes (IMO) Can I ask what your issue is with this choice? I'm unlikely to change it for the first month now, but the factors you highlight could well have an impact on future decisions on how this evolves :ok

[GaF]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables?

I guess for consistant benchmarking you need to play the same games :unsure Apples and apples and all that eh ?

DId it really take me more than 16 minutes to type my reply? :loon

[Guppie]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables? Size of the stakes probably.

[GaF]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables?

The following players have signed up :tongue2 Player01 Player02 Player03 Player04 Player05 :ok

Player06 and Player 07 signed up :ok

[PGremlin]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables?

Can I ask what your issue is with this choice? I'm unlikely to change it for the first month now' date=' but the factors you highlight could well have an impact on future decisions on how this evolves :ok[/quote'] I just blurred out a question in 15 secs :lol I won't sign up in February though :cry I wasn't criticizing, just wondered what the thought behind it was. Thanks for answering that. I don't have any experience with 5 handed table, somehow I still prefer full ring cash tables. Maybe it's from those deposit bonuses I used to play free :tongue2 The real reason why I won't be joining up is that I am short on pokertime. I can't play cash and keep playing the tournaments I play now on PL. I know how time devouring cash games can be. Have had grind sessions before to play free bonuses, especially in my first year of poker. GL GaF and your team. Maybe I'll join you guys if my situation changes :ok

[tomahawk1984]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables? Has a criterion for moving up levels been thought about? I imagine people will all progress at different speeds and if some one is doing well enough to move up will the want to grind another month at a lower level?

[staffy]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables? I would imagine toma. at the end of the month some players will move up a level and some players will need another month at that level. As well as some players who I am sure will drop out. In time though I am sure it will help the new cash game players. I am sure GaF will explain more. Dont forget its all in the planning stage at the moment.

[GaF]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables?

Has a criterion for moving up levels been thought about? I imagine people will all progress at different speeds and if some one is doing well enough to move up will the want to grind another month at a lower level?

My vague kind of plan is that everyone who shows a profit over their 5000 hands in February, will be invited (but not obligated) to try 12c/25c in March. Anyone who showed a loss will not be welcome in 12c/25c and required to play 5c/10c again. By the time we get to April, the vague idea is to invite to 25c/50c all players who have made a profit at all levels they have played, and a higher profit per hand at 12c/25c than 5c/10c. When a player has data at multiple levels, the intention is that they are never invited to more than 1 level above their most profitable level. Because stakes are so low, I'm not worrying about bankroll requirments too much at the moment, solely profitability - this may change as we move up. Of course, the other issue, is that benchmarking at two levels will be double the work - and I'm currently not too certain just how time consuming it will be, and how many levels I'd be prepared to manage - so for sure nothing is decided yet, and I'll work out (in discussion with the mods) how we should go forward in March..... maybe as this goes on, we can get others to benchmark at different levels (assuming it works and is successful ;) We need proof of concept first........)

[AJ]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables?

DId it really take me more than 16 minutes to type my reply? :loon

Apparently yes, but I assume you were playing at least 8 tables whilst doing the reply.

[tomahawk1984]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables?

I would imagine toma. at the end of the month some players will move up a level and some players will need another month at that level. As well as some players who I am sure will drop out. In time though I am sure it will help the new cash game players. I am sure GaF will explain more. Dont forget its all in the planning stage at the moment.

It was more a question about bankroll, would we be using conventional bankroll management or would we look to move up levels a bit quicker because the stakes are low. I think what GaF explained below answers my question.

My vague kind of plan is that everyone who shows a profit over their 5000 hands in February, will be invited (but not obligated) to try 12c/25c in March. Anyone who showed a loss will not be welcome in 12c/25c and required to play 5c/10c again. By the time we get to April, the vague idea is to invite to 25c/50c all players who have made a profit at all levels they have played, and a higher profit per hand at 12c/25c than 5c/10c. When a player has data at multiple levels, the intention is that they are never invited to more than 1 level above their most profitable level. Because stakes are so low, I'm not worrying about bankroll requirments too much at the moment, solely profitability - this may change as we move up. Of course, the other issue, is that benchmarking at two levels will be double the work - and I'm currently not too certain just how time consuming it will be, and how many levels I'd be prepared to manage - so for sure nothing is decided yet, and I'll work out (in discussion with the mods) how we should go forward in March..... maybe as this goes on, we can get others to benchmark at different levels (assuming it works and is successful ;) We need proof of concept first........)

[Nade]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables? From 200k+ hands experience and seeing graphs of 500k+ hands i think the way you'll vet people to move up in stakes is flawed due to the variance plays a huge part in cash games. Many would say a 30k hand sample is too little nevermind 5k so i'd definitely say there should be more scope given to people who want to move up in stakes not purely just from profit made IMO.

[PGremlin]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables?

From 200k+ hands experience and seeing graphs of 500k+ hands i think the way you'll vet people to move up in stakes is flawed due to the variance plays a huge part in cash games. Many would say a 30k hand sample is too little nevermind 5k so i'd definitely say there should be more scope given to people who want to move up in stakes not purely just from profit made IMO.

I guess it isn't to bad to move up on micro limit tables based on 5k hands. @0.25/0.50 and higher maybe a bigger sample should be advised before moving further up?

[Nade]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables?

I guess it isn't to bad to move up on micro limit tables based on 5k hands. @0.25/0.50 and higher maybe a bigger sample should be advised before moving further up?

It's just that results over a small sample can't be trusted. As there are a number of people involved though it means it's possible to analyse everyone's hands and work out with the use of PT or HEM where people are leaking money but most of all where the money is being made. So although individually 5k hands is too little, but with a 10person sample totalling 50k+ hands it means it's possible to get a general idea of how to beat the games (which i assume is the core purpose of this?).

[GaF]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables?

It's just that results over a small sample can't be trusted.

For sure :ok And that's why we'll need to reevaluate regularly (monthly). If we insisted on a valid sample size of 100k hands or so, then a lot (most) of us would never move from 5c/10c ;) 5k hands is far from perfect and likely inaccurate for a number of players, however it's the best indicator we'll have available to us.....

[Banzai]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables? I am interested in this but I would need to play weekday lunchtimes at work. Any idea what the traffic is like between 12 and 1PM UK time at these stakes? How many hours would 5k hands take if I 3 tabled?

[GaF]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables? If you play each table at 100 hands per hour, then 5000 hands would take 50 table hours - if you're 3 tabling, that's about 17 hours real time (just over 30 minutes per day over the month)

[PGremlin]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables? GaF are you going to post the interesting hands on PL? Might be really interesting to get the opinion from cash experts on PL?

[GaF]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables?

GaF are you going to post the interesting hands on PL? Might be really interesting to get the opinion from cash experts on PL?

Primarily the intention is to post macro stats by player, drilling down to specific areas of interest. I will be looking at things like position, aggression/passivity, specific starting hands (e.g. How well do different players get paid off with AA? What results do different approaches obtain with 66-TT?), what happens when players flop certain hands, how often players go to/win at showdown etc (and anything people direct me towards :ok). Within that, I'm not sure specific hands will be that relevent, however I may well post certain hands (anonymised) if I find them interesting... Player08 and Player10 have signed up (Player09 now withdrawn for the moment) - so we have 9 players in this so far - still time for anyone else who wishes to get involved (we start 1st February). I have set up a new email address for this - anyone who doesn't have 51 posts (so no PM) and wishes to join in, can email me :ok This is also the email address I would like the hand histories sent to :ok (I will post a step by step guide on how to get them off of you hard drive at some point :ok) The address is pl.benchmarking at googlemail.com :ok

[staffy]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables? Gaf at some point can you post an idiots guide how to get the hand hiostory from Boss network so it can be sent to you. (if needed)

[GaF]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables? Player09 signed up - so we have 10 players in this now :ok I'll get a guide up to getting the hands to me in plenty of time :ok

[GaF]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables?

Player09 signed up - so we have 10 players in this now :ok

To add too - it's an impressive line up of players - I wish I could share it with you :lol :lol :lol :lol :tongue2

[GaF]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables? Ok - February is a shorter month - so was thinking - anyone who wants to start this now, feel free to go ahead :ok The extra week will reduce the pressure a bit on getting 5k hands :ok Only request - hand histories sent to me must not in any way be "pre selected" - so please dont start early if you have a winning session but start next week if you lose - this is imperative if hands that we analyse are to be representative (useful and educational) :ok

[GaF]

Re: Are YOU ready to crack cash tables? Player11 signed up :) Something I hadn't considered before - for the sake of comparison, should we ask that all players buy in for the full buy in (100xBB)? (and top up if they get short) If we have players buying in for 20xBB, then their stats will not really be comprable :unsure (not sure if I can filter in PT3 by stack size)