GaF Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Where do we go from here? PokerStars Game #23727098563: Tournament #132819057, $5.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2009/01/09 12:37:01 ET Table '132819057 1' 10-max Seat #2 is the button Seat 1: Gumbaas (1500 in chips) Seat 2: pl-GaF (1490 in chips) Seat 3: mxsp (1480 in chips) Seat 4: GoJimmyGo (1500 in chips) Seat 5: mwhahahahaha (1530 in chips) Seat 6: dacoach76 (1500 in chips) Seat 7: krimkram26 (1500 in chips) is sitting out Seat 8: effinho (1500 in chips) Seat 9: An tLength (1500 in chips) Seat 10: klopiles8711 (1500 in chips) mxsp: posts small blind 10 GoJimmyGo: posts big blind 20 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to pl-GaF [:Ad: :Kd:] krimkram26 has returned mwhahahahaha: folds dacoach76: folds krimkram26: calls 20 effinho: folds An tLength: calls 20 klopiles8711: folds Gumbaas: calls 20 pl-GaF: raises 100 to 120 mxsp: calls 110 GoJimmyGo: folds krimkram26: calls 100 An tLength: folds Gumbaas: calls 100 *** FLOP *** [:7d: :9d: :2s:] mxsp: bets 320 krimkram26: folds Gumbaas: folds pl-GaF: ????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samba_SamPa Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Re: Double or Nothing: Two overcards and the nut flush draw I'd say this falls into the 'don't need the chips, but do need to survive' category, and I would be folding here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted January 9, 2009 Author Share Posted January 9, 2009 Re: Double or Nothing: Two overcards and the nut flush draw I'd say this falls into the 'don't need the chips' date=' but do need to survive' category, and I would be folding here.[/quote'] If he has a hand like :9s: :Td: then I'm a 52% favourite - with that, is there an argument for shoving - 52% + any fold equity potentially gives me a greater tournament equity than folding (I'll confess now - I shoved, he called with a pair of sixes and I won the hand with a King on the river :ok) - if I fold I'm down to 45% (ish) tournament equity. If he folds, then I increase my Tournament ev - if he calls, then I'm over 50% for near 100% tournament ev.... at the time I thought it was a bad shove .... now I'm persuading myself it maybe wasnt quite so bad..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Re: Double or Nothing: Two overcards and the nut flush draw How likely did you think it was that you'd get a call pre-flop? Since you actually got three calls, presumably not that unlikely! I'd actually have folded preflop. I hate playing hands early in a cooler where I'm unlikely to be confident where I am after the flop, and AK with a likelihood of being called is exactly that kind of hand. Having got to this point, I agree with the shove: the call with 66 is lunatic! :loon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted January 9, 2009 Author Share Posted January 9, 2009 Re: Double or Nothing: Two overcards and the nut flush draw I just find it so hard to put AKs down pre flop....... Of the 38 times I've been dealt AKs in DoN, I've folded 35% but got involved 65% (45% raise, 20% limp). I've lost more than 500 chips on 3 of the hands. I've won more than 500 chips on 6 of the hands (ok - 5 hands, and one was exactly 500 :tongue2) I've won over 100 chips on 15 occasions I've lost over 100 chips on 10 occasions Up to blinds of 50/100, I've had AKs on 20 occasions. I've once lost 240, and twice lost 110. My winnings have been 1760,915,315,260,200,180,180 All of that taken together, at this level of buy in, I dont think it's too bad to get involved with AKs at the lower blind levels :unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Re: Double or Nothing: Two overcards and the nut flush draw now, you fold. It's not even a question. He'll bet out again on the turn, thou shall not chase draws. why would you want to race for your game at this stage. More important point for me I think is, i hate your preflop raise. when I get my cards I ask myself a question, what is my aim here ? Am I trying to pick up blinds or attemping to win a large pot. with AKs it's a large pot, but I want a cheap flop. Here I flat call preflop and fold to any raise. Yes, this means you'll fold to hands your beating preflop, but it's about survival and picking your spot. Your preflop raise suggests your plan is to take down the blinds (although why you want to do this is beyond me). AKs preflop should be raised like you've done when the blinds are worth winning 50/100 and above and disguised with the hoping of hitting a monster prior to that. Too agressive preflop. Sorry if I've rambled but I've got a hangover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted January 9, 2009 Author Share Posted January 9, 2009 Re: Double or Nothing: Two overcards and the nut flush draw I'm going to defend my pre flop raise :tongue2 The goal was to get the hand Heads Up (I failed!) - I didnt want a multi way pot against hands like AJ, A7 and 88 where hitting an Ace could seriously leave me behind .... AKs is great heads up - it's poor multi way... He'll bet out again on the turn, thou shall not chase draws. What about shoving? You're likely to be ahead of his range, add in some fold equity..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Re: Double or Nothing: Two overcards and the nut flush draw But heads up against what ? and then what ? i'm still not clear what your objective is in this hand is, are you hoping to hit and stack him ? Even if it's plus ev in a cash game, doesn't mean it's a good idea first round of a don. What kind of hand is going to call your raise, a medium pocket pair ? You're not going to get a call from KQ or AJ. If you miss the flop (as you most likely will) and he bets out you'll have to fold. Unless of course you're planing on stealing on the flop, which carries huge dangers. Whole thing is far too complex, better to fold it in the first round or at best flat call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted January 9, 2009 Author Share Posted January 9, 2009 Re: Double or Nothing: Two overcards and the nut flush draw I'm likely to cbet the flop if he checks and the flop isnt too scary. Do the stats in post 5 not offer some justification for playing AKs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodgey Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Re: Double or Nothing: Two overcards and the nut flush draw I don't see anything wrong with your pre-flop play. On the flop I guess it's either shove or fold. Calling is a no cos if you hit the flush you'll probably get no more out of them and if you miss again you're probably facing an all-in. I can see the arguments for folding but it's so difficult to do in the circumstances. Here's a similar one where I tried a re-raise. :$ PokerStars Game #23455777895: Tournament #130941824, $5.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2009/01/01 8:15:23 ET Table '130941824 1' 10-max Seat #2 is the button Seat 1: yarki78 (1500 in chips) Seat 2: Dutchref (1490 in chips) Seat 3: JTcebola (1480 in chips) Seat 4: Neotri (1500 in chips) Seat 5: dhdk79 (1500 in chips) Seat 6: Swaixtix (1500 in chips) Seat 7: rokfor606 (1500 in chips) Seat 8: hansarabauke (1500 in chips) Seat 9: SaNdRa_DD73 (1500 in chips) Seat 10: Sleekshot (1530 in chips) JTcebola: posts small blind 10 Neotri: posts big blind 20 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to Sleekshot [Kh Qh] dhdk79: folds Swaixtix: folds rokfor606: calls 20 hansarabauke: calls 20 SaNdRa_DD73: raises 60 to 80 Sleekshot: calls 80 yarki78: folds Dutchref: folds JTcebola: folds Neotri: folds rokfor606: calls 60 hansarabauke: calls 60 *** FLOP *** [2s 7h Th] rokfor606: checks hansarabauke: checks SaNdRa_DD73: bets 180 Sleekshot: raises 320 to 500 rokfor606: folds hansarabauke: folds SaNdRa_DD73: raises 920 to 1420 and is all-in Sleekshot: calls 920 *** TURN *** [2s 7h Th] [2d] *** RIVER *** [2s 7h Th 2d] [Qc] *** SHOW DOWN *** SaNdRa_DD73: shows [Kc Kd] (two pair, Kings and Deuces) Sleekshot: shows [Kh Qh] (two pair, Queens and Deuces) SaNdRa_DD73 collected 3190 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 3190 | Rake 0 Board [2s 7h Th 2d Qc] Seat 1: yarki78 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 2: Dutchref (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 3: JTcebola (small blind) folded before Flop Seat 4: Neotri (big blind) folded before Flop Seat 5: dhdk79 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 6: Swaixtix folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 7: rokfor606 folded on the Flop Seat 8: hansarabauke folded on the Flop Seat 9: SaNdRa_DD73 showed [Kc Kd] and won (3190) with two pair, Kings and Deuces Seat 10: Sleekshot showed [Kh Qh] and lost with two pair, Queens and Deuces Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfaz Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Re: Double or Nothing: Two overcards and the nut flush draw In relation to the initial thread, i'm shoving there. You will likely have 52% equity +fold equity as his bet screams 98, 10 9 etc. Secondly, i think there are some terrible terrible posts here - limp folding AKsuited preflop???? That is the weakest thing i have ever heard in poker. And the raise preflop is not to steal the blinds, it is to narrow the field and build a pot. AKs is a premium hand in which you want to play a big pot. And say he just limps, what are you hoping for on the flop, because you can't even feel safe on an A 10 7 flop against 3 or 4 players there. I'm sorry, but limp folding AK is absolutely terrible, and its the most incredible example of weak, scared play that i have ever heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted January 25, 2009 Author Share Posted January 25, 2009 Re: Double or Nothing: Two overcards and the nut flush draw Secondly, i think there are some terrible terrible posts here - limp folding AKsuited preflop???? That is the weakest thing i have ever heard in poker. sean - can I ask if you've ever played Double or Nothing? :unsure They are a very peculiar dynamic and totally different to standard STT theory. Slapdash (who would fold AKs) is crushing the €50 DoN games - so his opinion carries a lot of weight with me - no disrespect intended - but I know nothing of where you play, what you've achieved, or even if you've even played a DoN :unsure.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfaz Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Re: Double or Nothing: Two overcards and the nut flush draw I have played it before but I'm not a big fan to be honest. I am far from an expert in DoN games but i still cannot see how folding a premium hand preflop to no raise. Correct me if i'm wrong, but these games require at least some chip accumulation, purely to survive. And if you're not going to try to accumulate with AKs, then what are you going to do it with. You're not going to survive on a 1500 stack the whole way. Another point to make, surely if the object of this game is to play incredibly tight, then it would make more sense to raise with the AK, not just for the value of the hand, but if people are playing tight then you can force them off alot of flops. After all, a key theory in poker is to play the opposite why to the way your opponents are playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted January 25, 2009 Author Share Posted January 25, 2009 Re: Double or Nothing: Two overcards and the nut flush draw My view on the key difference between standard STTs and DoNs is that the price paid by all players in the pot when a large pot is played is large. It's typically bad for both, even the player who is ahead in the hand. The key therefore isnt necessarily "tight", but to get the money in first and leverage fold equity so that you take the pot down uncontested (because in a contest you lose equity, even if you have the best hand, but especially if it is Ace high) - when the blinds are 10/20, you dont really want to take it down for 30 chips, but you dont really want a contest either - and that I think is the argument for folding - sure you cannot fold into the money, but you want to wait to leverage your fold equity when the blinds are worth winning. Typically in a DoN, there are players who dont understand this, and compete against one another - so by sitting out the first few levels, you can increase your tournament equity without playing a hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanfaz Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Re: Double or Nothing: Two overcards and the nut flush draw Yeah i can definately see what you are saying. But when the blinds are 10/20 you are not looking for everyone to fold. One caller is fine. He will miss 2/3 of the time, and you get their call. Other times you flop a big hand. You aren't looking to create huge confrontation by raising, just to accumulate some chips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stpokered Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Re: Double or Nothing: Two overcards and the nut flush draw I like your pre-flop raise, and for me this is an easy shove on the flop. Any good player should recognise your strength and only someone who has flopped a set/two pair/striaght flush draw should be able to call you (unless they have slowplayed AA to perfection which i highly doubt in a $5 game!). And as you said even if you are called you will be ahead so its a win win situation :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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