Pokerstars Double or Nothing - Plugging leaks

[GaF]

Ok - I'm struggling - I know I am :sad So is there anyone who wants to pair up (preferably F, NS with GSOH, but failing that, anyone will do :tongue2) and see what we can do to help one another? I would say that it has to be a Pokerstars player, and someone with a PT3 database. For example, I'm looking at my PT3 database and see that on the button with 10 players, I'm playing 7% VPIP and 4.5% PFR - is that too tight? Is it too loose? Could I make more by playing differently? I dont know because I have nothing to compare it to..... Possibilities I'm thinking of: - Simply exchange Stars DoN database with someone so I have something to compare to (as would they) - schedule an MSN session with someone (maybe sharing screen views of our PT3 window with Remote assistance) to compare and contrast stats live. My DB isnt large at the moment - 2151 hands (coolers since 27/12/8) - so maybe need to wait a little bit....

[GaF]

Re: Pokerstars Double or Nothing - Plugging leaks If I go back to 28th October, my DB is just over 10k hands, but just over half of those are $1 (DoN) games - the rest being $5 DoN Games.

[ELCAKER]

Re: Pokerstars Double or Nothing - Plugging leaks Hi GAF, i'm too much of a technophobe to have any idea what you are talking about! But I'll say this, if you are struggling then tighten up. You know what kind of hands you are playing, and you know whether you are playing looser or not. If the answer is the latter then you may just be experiencing a little bit of negative variance. One answer might be to move away from Coolers for a bit...I find it helps me at times to just switch about, play some cash, play some sng's, play some multi's. Staying fresh is important, and you should also be elarning new things, playing different styles etc. Best of luck for 2009 - you seem to know what you are talking about, I'm sure it is a temporary blip!

[BillHicks]

Re: Pokerstars Double or Nothing - Plugging leaks I think when double or nothings started theyu were free money as the fish played too loose early, but it is a format where it is easy even for fish to learn to play OK, so the value in them dropped off. so the problem maybe is not your play GAF but the rapid learning curve of opposition. also I'd have thought you were too good to spend your time for 1 and 5 dollar games.

[GaF]

Re: Pokerstars Double or Nothing - Plugging leaks

also I'd have thought you were too good to spend your time for 1 and 5 dollar games.

:lol :lol ty :ok However dont be fooled ;) My play is a lot worse than people think - I can sometimes talk a good theoretical game and think that's where I mislead people - the bottom line - the only score that counts - is profit or loss, and if I cannot beat $5 games, then I'm not too good for them!! Elcaker - Thanks for the feedback :ok I'm not sure tightening up is the answer - I'm already playing a very tight game (though maybe not quite as tight as I think :unsure) My goal isn't really to just find easier games - I do want to identify my weaknesses, work on them and learn from them - so just "running away" from a game (in the short term) isnt something I want to do.... I am still convinced that the difference in skill between Boss and Stars is quite large - on Boss, you can largely fold your way into the money, on Stars you cannot. The ante's on stars also give better odds, so is less punishing to bad (overactive) play (The Gap is smaller because the odds offered are larger)

[Samba_SamPa]

Re: Pokerstars Double or Nothing - Plugging leaks I understand the argument that if you can't beat $5 games, then you shouldn't play $10 games - in normal STT poker. But in these DoNs I genuinely think that may not apply. If your playing 'perfect DoN poker' (not saying you do) means that it is +EV for you to shove with your JTs from the Button on the bubble then that is what you do. However the $5 SB who has you covered by 600 chips, and if playing 'correctly' would fold, sees his A5o and calls simply because he has an Ace, and there's no help to you in the middle, bye bye you're a gonna, even though you have played in a EV correct manner. Whereas at a higher buy-in, the better player would pass that Ace-rag so as not to decimate his stack needlessly. Against that will be the argument that the necessity is therefore for you to adjust your play to beat this level. However, that adjustment would mean you have to 'dumb down' your strategy - when can that ever be right? Do you get what I mean? :unsure

[GaF]

Re: Pokerstars Double or Nothing - Plugging leaks I think I get what you mean .... but I dont agree :tongue2 It may be that if everyone is playing perfect poker, then I should shove, but that my move is a mistake if a subsequent player makes a mistake and calls me (I think we agree so far) - where we differ I think - my play shouldnt be the perfect play in isolation - it should be the perfect play taking into account my opponents response ... I need to assess the chances that my opponent will make a mistake (and cost me) and take that into consideration with my play..... I dont think it means dumbing down my play - it means adjusting my play to take account of my opponents action - isnt that what poker is all about? If I fail to do it at the $5 level, then I wont take full advantage of the bad players I come across at the $50 level - so if my edge isnt against the bad players, who will it be against? The good players?

[Samba_SamPa]

Re: Pokerstars Double or Nothing - Plugging leaks I do understand what you're saying, and agree - to a point. ;) lol In the scenario though - against low level DoN players, then how do you adjust your approach to adjust for the skill level of the villains? With the villains having a wider calling range than those in higher levels, then your current strategy should be more effective at this level - as your equity if you shove tightly will be greater as their calling range widens? So over the long term would it not be -EV to widen your shoving range. Gah, I'm turning myself inside out and back to front here, so god knows how anybody else will understand what I mean :wall ----------------- My advice (:lol at offering you advice) would be to experiment for the next 50 (?) games by trying to see as many flops at the early levels as you can - you'll have greater control over the mistakes you're trying to get the villains to make post- rather than pre-flop? And the variance - which is the killer in DoNs imo - will be reduced by your getting the chips in as an 80-20 favourite, rather than the 60-40 favourite pre-flop.

[GaF]

Re: Pokerstars Double or Nothing - Plugging leaks I have wondered whether "tight is right" in the early stages is still right on these :unsure especially on Pokerstars with the ante's.... I might just give it a try at being loose (passive) at the early levels pre flop in these :ok I think it's essential that I temper my natural post flop aggression though - it has to be "small ball" all the way.... unless I really hit....

[ELCAKER]

Re: Pokerstars Double or Nothing - Plugging leaks :\GAF "My goal isn't really to just find easier games - I do want to identify my weaknesses, work on them and learn from them - so just "running away" from a game (in the short term) isnt something I want to do...." The only way you'll identify your weaknesses is by playing a variety of games. You may be a better DoN player than you are cash or mtt's but by playing the latter you'll imrpove your game. It isn't "running away" mate, it is becoming a better player. You may not agree with it, but how would you know otherwise, you haven't tried it? The point Samba makes regarding the standard of play of better players higher up the rankings isn't up for debate, it is fact. It doesn't matter whether playing DoN's or cash or multi's with bigger buy-ins, the standard will increase the higher you go. You seem to have a very sound understanding of the theory of the game, start using it. If you are playing at a very low level, and I would consider $1 - $5 DoN's a low level, then you can't expect a large number of you opponents to play "correctly". Many will be novices, bad players, or both. I reckon mate that if you were given a £5k bankroll to play with and told to go and hit the £1-2 tables or $100 DoN's, or MTT'S with a max buy-in of $50 you'd fare alot better than you might think. And if you were implementing the theory and strategy that you know into your game, you might even win! :ok

[AJ]

Re: Pokerstars Double or Nothing - Plugging leaks I haven't bothered importing my hand historys for these into PT, which i keep purely as a cash game tool. However I do have over three hundred of these games played, at an average of say 40 - 50 hands each, so about 12 - 15,000 hands here that I've kept the history files for. If you wanted these let me know, i think you can import them directly into PT :unsure I'd actually be really interested to see what my own stats look like. You know my results here are decent, so it should be a interesting exercise to compare where our stats differ. let me know either way :ok

[GaF]

Re: Pokerstars Double or Nothing - Plugging leaks That would be fantastic AJ :ok I wouldnt publish any of your stats without your say so, but I'll definitely keep you appraised of my findings/thoughts privately :ok

[AJ]

Re: Pokerstars Double or Nothing - Plugging leaks Some basic comments on how i play these in case anyone is interested. split the game into two phases, phase one (10/20,15/30,25/50,50/100) and phase two, the end game. Phase one I'll fold a lot of hands, but will limp small pocket pairs (9 and below) and look for a set, if I hit I push. Will fold a small pp against a single raise. From mid to late position, i'll try and see a flop with with any two broadway cards, again i don't play against opposition. If I hit the flop I'll bet hard otherwise I fold. If I get a high pocket pair, I'll over bet hard. If i only pick up blinds so be it. Phase two, I could almost play without looking at my cards. It's just survival and end game. I'll steal at least once in a round to maintain stack size relative to the other players

[JulioArca]

Re: Pokerstars Double or Nothing - Plugging leaks

I think I get what you mean .... but I dont agree :tongue2 It may be that if everyone is playing perfect poker, then I should shove, but that my move is a mistake if a subsequent player makes a mistake and calls me (I think we agree so far) - where we differ I think - my play shouldnt be the perfect play in isolation - it should be the perfect play taking into account my opponents response ... I need to assess the chances that my opponent will make a mistake (and cost me) and take that into consideration with my play..... I dont think it means dumbing down my play - it means adjusting my play to take account of my opponents action - isnt that what poker is all about? If I fail to do it at the $5 level, then I wont take full advantage of the bad players I come across at the $50 level - so if my edge isnt against the bad players, who will it be against? The good players?

So if I am reading this correctly you are adjusting your game to take into account the bad play of players at that level? This may be where I am going wrong :lol I try to make the best play I can at all times and if the donk calls my AK push with K9 and hits a 9 or his K8 cracks my AA then I swear a lot and sign up for the next one. If I started worrying whether the donk is going to make the correct play or not I would very quickly go insane. FWIW I suck at $3 SNG, and make a return at the $5 / $10 level. I must stop playing $3 SNGs even though they do fill up quicker! Having played a couple of times with you GaF I would recommend that you set aside $200 and play 20 $10 SNGs and see how you get on - you may be pleasantly surprised. Dont get disheartened if you lose the buyin for the first 8 - stick with it. I have had 8 game losing streaks at $3 level - usually donked off by the big stack but I am still in profit.

[GaF]

Re: Pokerstars Double or Nothing - Plugging leaks I have AJs hand history db in PT3 now and have to say - it is really interesting and enlightening - I'd urge everyone to team up with someone else and exchange databases with them to work through - they dont even have to be a better player than you - just someone you can benchmark against (in fact that's giving me the seeds of some ideas;).....) - there will be some areas where you are more profitable, and there will be some areas where they are more profitable. What's become clear to me though is that AJ is crushing me in almost every area I've looked at :sad I really need to improve the way I'm playing these (on stars at least). I'm especially behind on "Phase 2" (as AJ described it). Most interesting point I've picked up on so far is that the 50/100 blind level is where I'm doing most wrong - this is my most unprofitable level (but it is AJs most profitable level) - so that's where I need to concentrate my focus. I'm playing way way too tight at the moment, and at this level it's costing me - it's a level I dont like - a raise is too much of my stack and an all inis too big a bet - so I tend to "hide away" - I now realise that I just cannot do that - it's costing me too much..... Staffy has also offered to watch me through a game (and sit with me on MSN) at some point, which I'm really looking forward to and think could be a big help :ok Anyway - played my first batch of games since making this thread and a big boost to my confidence with 5 wins from 6 :) Pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things, but hopefully the first step towards improved results :hope

[GaF]

Re: Pokerstars Double or Nothing - Plugging leaks 5 out of 6 in my second batch since this thread (and the one I went out on was AA all in pre flop :) so cannot be unhappy there) :) So 10 from 12 - looking hopeful :hope