muttley Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 I've only been playing poker for around six months now, and I'm reasonably pleased with my progress so far. I've played cash games and tournaments on Full Tilt, read a few books and taken soom good advice from this site too!! :ok I also play in a weekly pub league. I enjoy the crack, but the standard of play is questionable. I feel I should be winning more often than I do, but any plays, bluffs or semi-bluffs I make just get called. Judging from the number of pots that everyone enters I would say I am by far the tightest player in the group. The structure of the tourney,however,(blinds go up every 10 minutes) means there is considerable pressure to build up chips. So what are the rules for playing against these types of opponents? I feel I can outplay them in the latter stages, but playing supertight means I will be the short stack by then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Re: Donkey Slaying Thats why poker is so enjoyable muttley as you have to play differently against different opponents. Usually on a tight table I play looser and on a loose table I tighten up. The advantage with live poker is that position is so important and when folded to you in late position you should be playing a lot of hands and try and take advantage of the blinds. This is where your bluffing should become more prominent as you should be studying the blinds body language and the majority of the time you will know if they have something or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatch Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Re: Donkey Slaying Sounds simple to me. Your too good to be playing at this standard. You need to be moving up and finding deeper and better structures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McG Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Re: Donkey Slaying Playing live, with blind changes every 10 minutes, can make it very much like a crapshoot. You'll get through much fewer hands than online, and it can take 10 minutes to get through 6 hands. Not a lot of room for subtlety or "proper" poker, so either get ready to play them more aggressively and fly by the seat of your pants (which can be exhilerating, but not necessarily great for your poker education if you pick up too many bad tricks), or follow Blatch's advice and look for something with a more sensible structure. But enjoy it. Keep away from the cash tables until you can afford to lose big, and watch how others react/play. You're probably unsuccessful with your bluffs in your current environment because virtually ALL players are being more "creative" than they would normally be, and they're used to everyone being on the rob. This is fine if you catch a big hand, but can be disconcerting if you never get a bluff through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Re: Donkey Slaying Sounds simple to me. Your too good to be playing at this standard. You need to be moving up and finding deeper and better structures. Simply don't buy the this theory, if you're a decent player you should be able to adapt your game to crush these people. Play tight at first, top ten percent of hands only, don't seek to build chips even with 10 mins blinds. When you hit good cards, overbet and you'll pick up easy and cheap double ups. Tighten your game up again a little towards the end of the night as you face the better players. Easy. I played pub leagues all last year and won (and defended my title) in a 16 week league with 50 players. Sure you need to play at higher levels, but you should be able to utterly crush a pub game first. A good player can adapt their game to the people they're playing against, not seek out a table of people that suits their game style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muttley Posted December 30, 2008 Author Share Posted December 30, 2008 Re: Donkey Slaying Sounds simple to me. Your too good to be playing at this standard. You need to be moving up and finding deeper and better structures. This did occur to me, especially after getting crippled by Q,J v my K,K last night. But........... Simply don't buy the this theory' date=' if you're a decent player you should be able to adapt your game to crush these people. [/quote'] I absolutely agree with this. If I can't beat these guys then how can I move up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Re: Donkey Slaying You are right you should be able to win these players but you need a style that will beat this structure. With 10 min blinds you can't sit and wait for hands and as u say they are loose aggressive some are obviosuly going to accummulate very big stacks. Loosen up your style and just play the odds. I would play all Small pairs and suited connecetors early on and nut flush hands. Obviously you want to get in cheap with these hands but you can raise to mix it up a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 Re: Donkey Slaying I disagree, I think you can coast for at least the first 3 or 4 levels. Mistake I see most often is trying for the early double up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 Re: Donkey Slaying If you want to win you can't AJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 Re: Donkey Slaying If you want to win you can't AJ. Sorry Steve, but I played pub games with 10 mins blinds two nights a week for a entire year. I know this format backwards and I won most weeks at it. We played with 50 players (5 tables), I cashed (top 6) over 75% of the time. This is the way to beat these games. Assuming we start with 1,500 chips and 10/20 blinds then 25/50, 50/100 & 75/150 with 10 mins intervals, you'll go through each set of blinds once. These four sets of blinds will only consume 480 chips. It's less than a third of your stack. You can afford this. In reality playing ubber tight, top ten starting hands only you should win 1 or 2 hands during this time, stick tight and then losen up and the stealing will be easier from the 5th round. You'll get away with it. Then hammer them with a monster. It's not that hard once you get used to the format Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 Re: Donkey Slaying Well it seems to me that Muttley has been playing in the way you suggest AJ which is a normal 10 seater STT or Cooler startegy to me. Unless he's suffering from bad variance he needs to tweak things a little surely. But without the exact structure and number of players we're both guessing anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 Re: Donkey Slaying If your opponents are bad, then you need to understand how they are bad in order to take advantage of it. If they are bad because they always call, then you should not bluff or semi bluff them (except maybe with microbets as mentioned later) - but as already suggested when you do hit, then you should overbet - because they will call! You should also value bet relentlessly on the river - any time you believe you are ahead and that your opponent will call you with a worse hand, then extract that value from them. If your opponents call your overbets and value bets, then you have larger than usual implied odds. This is also true if they are the type of opponents who will check later streets rather than bet (giving you free or cheap cards) - in this case, you can play the first few rounds in a loose passive way (it's not often that's the best way to play, but I think it could be here) - see lots of flops cheap and bet aggressively when you hit and let them pay you off with worse hands. They are also likely to not pay attention to bet sizing - so their errors may not only be to call when they should fold, but it is likely that they will fold when they should call - if this is the case, then you can probably get away with pummelling them with micro bets on each street, picking up more pots than you should. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muttley Posted December 31, 2008 Author Share Posted December 31, 2008 Re: Donkey Slaying But without the exact structure and number of players we're both guessing anyway. Typically 14 to 18 players. Each player starts with 1,750 chips. Blinds start at 25/50 then 50/100, 100/200, 150/300, 200/400, 250/500. If anyone loses ALL their chips they receive another 1500. Those players who haven't received the 1500 top up get it now. Then blinds go 300/600, 400/800, (we're usually down to one table, 9 players by now) 500/1000, 600/1200 etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muttley Posted December 31, 2008 Author Share Posted December 31, 2008 Re: Donkey Slaying I would play all Small pairs and suited connecetors early on and nut flush hands. Obviously you want to get in cheap with these hands but you can raise to mix it up a bit. Agreed. These hands go up in value and can be played out of position. A,K can be a monster if you flop an ace, as all the other aces will stick around. Hands J,J through 9,9 go down in early position. I should play them the same as 8,8 through 2,2. Flopping a set with a pocket pair should not be slow played, but I like the idea of micro-raising these hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 Re: Donkey Slaying Terrible structure Muttley so it really is a bit of a crapshoot from the start. If you sit out the first couple of levels as AJ suggests next level you have less than 8 blinds left. This structure obviously doesn't suit a better player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubermonkey1 Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 Re: Donkey Slaying yeah that really is a bit of a crapshoot live as your not even gonna get a full revolution in one level:( its fun but evens out the skill levels of the players a bit as luck becomes a much bigger factor,you cant sit out for long in this sort of game so you'll just need to take a few risks here and there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 Re: Donkey Slaying Muttley you seem to know how win at this structure. Obviously the other players like to gamble more and you might just be o a bad run. One thing I would do with these type of players is limp with your playable hands but when raised I'd just jam with the monsters AA KK. I'd even do it with AK to mix it up a bit but I reckon you'd get a lot of players who'd overvalue hands like AJ AQ and medium pairs etc., If you lose with your AK at least you can enjoy a few more beers hehe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muttley Posted December 31, 2008 Author Share Posted December 31, 2008 Re: Donkey Slaying The "Top Up" rule really sucks, but it was introduced because most weeks someone went out after a few hands. So my New Year's resolution is to have a look round for a better game. At least I don't have to drink less or lose weight!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 Re: Donkey Slaying Yeah. Just treat it it as abit of fun. I play with mates who's structure is awful but I just get on it with it and play like a cnut. I probably play 80% of hands in these games as they love seeing flops and bet hard when I hit, but like I say I treat it as a bit of fun and a break from online poker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muttley Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 Re: Donkey Slaying Well I looked at a couple of other pubs in the same league and it seems they all use the same structure. (It's actually 2,000 chips plus a 1,500 top up). I'm a little happier with my situation as I won this week,thanks to some of the tips here, which means I've won 3 of the last 9 (Average 15 players). I'm also honing my observational skills and picking up on quite a few tells. To give you an idea of how wild this structure is we were down to three players and the blinds were 5,000/10,000 with only 59,500 chips in play! When we arrived at heads-up my opponent was already all-in with the small blind. My next step is to try a casino and see how my play matches up to the games there. It shouldn't be too difficult to find a low entry tournament as I live in Blackpool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubermonkey1 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Re: Donkey Slaying Well I looked at a couple of other pubs in the same league and it seems they all use the same structure. (It's actually 2,000 chips plus a 1,500 top up). I'm a little happier with my situation as I won this week,thanks to some of the tips here, which means I've won 3 of the last 9 (Average 15 players). I'm also honing my observational skills and picking up on quite a few tells. To give you an idea of how wild this structure is we were down to three players and the blinds were 5,000/10,000 with only 59,500 chips in play! When we arrived at heads-up my opponent was already all-in with the small blind. My next step is to try a casino and see how my play matches up to the games there. It shouldn't be too difficult to find a low entry tournament as I live in Blackpool. played in the g in blackpool and thats quite nice:ok would think they do a decent freezeout once a week as they all seem to now,good luck:hope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muttley Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 Re: Donkey Slaying played in the g in blackpool and thats quite nice:ok would think they do a decent freezeout once a week as they all seem to now,good luck:hope More than once a week it seems. Tue £30 NL Hold 'Em D/C Freezeout Wed £25 NL Hold 'Em Freezeout Sat £25 NL Hold 'Em Deepstack Freezeout........all 8pm What's the difference between a Freezeout and a D/C Freezeout? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonzie14 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Re: Donkey Slaying I think DC means double chance, prolly a single rebuy or something similar. :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Re: Donkey Slaying The G Casino Blackpool really is a cracking place. Wish I had one like that nearer me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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