Big Pair Coyness

[billy the punter]

I wrote this some time ago elsewhere, been meaning to dig it out and post on here. Be nice to get some new opinions..... ---- It's always split when the talk is about slow playing or . Many are vehemently opposed to this tactic. Others believe it can be a cunning play, if used correctly, to win a massive pot. Most in the slow play camp do so when dealt these hands in early position, especially UTG. Now I'm not against this tactic, I use it from time to time but some players worry about an UTG limper and you may not get the raise you're after unless they too have a monster (and in that case you're going to get action even if you raise when first to act). Probably the only time I slowplay UTG is maybe the early levels of an online mtt or a loose pot limit cash game. During level one or two of an online mtt there isn't enough in the middle to win and obviously you cannot raise much anyway, you're likely to get called for 80/100 chips with busting hands anyway. So I may limp in this instance in order to get 25% of my stack (or more) preflop. However if you don't get that raise then you have to keep the pot cheap post-flop. Pass if you can when beat, I know passing aces is hard so keeping it cheap is Plan B. I'm not saying you shouldn't bet out on a non-scare board BUT I'd certainly slow down after getting action. A loose pot limit cash game is the other instance where I might slow play UTG or in early position. They game I used play in live was like this, and there are two reasons why I'd slow play, firstly it's very likely there will be a raise pre flop every hand. Secondly, its a callers game preflop, if I raise the pot UTG its likely that I will get a few callers due to value. If I don't get the raise and we got 8/9 handed to the flop then I obviously not liking my hand and even on a non-scare board I may go into check-calling mode. This is the reason why some hate the idea of slowplaying, they simply can't lay their hand down regardless of the acion/board after they've slow played. If you can't, then forget the whole slow playing idea. It's you thats the reason, not the play itself. This is the common way to slow play the big two hands, but due to the problems stated above, I believe there are better value opportunities to slow play. Flat calling a raise when last or close to last to act can be benefical. Especially in NL. So many players will fire a continuation bet for you raise but also if the flop helps them you're going to win a big pot most of the time. For example a lot of players won't pass an (middle) overpair on a baby flop. Although many will disagree with me here I have even slow played these hands in late position, even on the button. If you're an aggressive player a button call looks weak and it's very hard to read you for a big hand, almost impossible. Quick example of how a button limp with a monster can be a great way to disguise. About six months ago (at time when originally written) or so I was playing an online 3/6 NL game (6 handed) - I had annoyed the whole table (don't know why), had been caught with my hand in the till once or twice, was doing about a monkey and getting royally rubbed down by the other players. I pick up , now is my chance to get some back and stick it up one or more of them. UTG raises, all fold to me in the small blinds and I flat call, the BB folds. The flop was very similar to this - I check, check-raising was my plan, but the raiser checks behind me, as a result, alarm bells ring obviously. Turn brings - cosmic. Check-check. Hmm. River was Ugh! Board now reads I can do nothing but check, he checks too and shows I win a massive $42 - lovely when you're doing a monkey and you pick up aces v queens ain't it? The table found this hilarious and the slagging continued, I got a few 'lol's and a 'wp'. Then as expected someone typed the age old poker myth of the mushroom; "only fish slow play aces!" I reply with something detrimental (I do that sometimes) saying he is wrong, and he should trust me as I know better etc, by then of course the cards where out of the next hand, I was on the button now and got dealt unreal It's folded around to me and I limp on the button choosing to slow play again. Big Mouth Mushroom No1 ("never slow play AA") makes it $24 in the SB, Big Mouth Mushroom No2 in the BB then reraises to $90 appox. Oh. I put the time bank on while so I could rub my hands together for a bit. Then I moved in for $630 odd. Reason being, they think I'm tilting obviously, and it really did look like the resteal/squeeze play with perhaps a small/mid pair (a move that I would never do, but many onliners like to lose money this way). Anyway SB pass and BB puts the clock on. SB is now telling the BB to call me, saying even a mid pair is miles clear. He calls for the full amount, I flop a house and pick up a massive pot which puts me infront. Now, its always better to be a gracious winner, and not to lower yourself to the level of others, but that's loser talk. So I told the BB to thank the SB for the advice, told the SB he made a good read and that he was right, you should NEVER slow play aces. The way I played it, with the game in it's current state, I was always going to get a call from upwards and That's THE whole point, when slow playing, you must have a constant feel for the mood of the table. Is a raise likely? Do players know you? Will they scared of an UTG limp by you? Obviously aces are much easier to slow play due to the dreaded ace that ALWAYS appears on the flop (one in five my arse) when you slow play kings, but If you get it right, you may double up instead of nicking the blinds, but if it goes wrong try and only lose the minimum. ---- Now I cannot remember exactly when this was, and I don't recall playing too much NLHE cash online at all, think it may've been during my brief spell on Ladbrokes - anyway the theory remains the same. Thoughts?

[Tweetypie05]

Re: Big Pair Coyness Nice post Billy. I would agree that slowplaying AA or KK is both situational and positional and not something I would do most of the time as it can all too easily go wrong! The way you described it made sense to me and IF I get an opportunity that 'feels' right then I would slowplay aces. As you have said it is all about getting the right situation to maximise your winnings. The situation you described below sounded perfect! Some nice change there! Cha-ching!

[billy the punter]

Re: Big Pair Coyness Thanks Tweetie. Yes this was a perfect coup - AA twice on the spin after messing it up the hand prior, if it wasn't true I wouldn't had believed it! Obviously it's easy to show the benefits with the example above, when things clicked - like you say it can easily go wrong (like it almost did in the hand previously). They main thing (and possibly the hardest) is letting it go on the flop once you've slow played and not got that preflop raise. I always try and remember that I've hardly put anything in the pot in these situations and it makes the pass easier. In an un-raised pot, if there's bundles of action it's unlikely it'll go to one pair, if you think about it. Putting all this into practise however is another thing....:lol :ok

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: Big Pair Coyness I only just skim-read that, but essentially, the only time it's worth slow-playing big pairs pre-flop is when you're in early position on an LAG table (with the AG part being more important than the L)

[happyhornet]

Re: Big Pair Coyness Nice analysis Billy :ok. I read a post on 2+2 that espoused the slow playing of Aces in tournaments with two exact requirements: 1. early levels of a tournament where a raise may just pick up 45 chips from the blinds, limp in and call a raise or re-raise (dependant on the table) 2. This should only be done by a player who has the capacity to get away from his cards. I like your idea of calling in late position though, that would look weak.

[ELCAKER]

Re: Big Pair Coyness Nice pair Billy! Here are my thoughts on the subject and rather controversialy I feel that the slow playing of big pairs is severly underrated. I would add that I feel I do have the ability to get away from AA or KK if needs be!! I had an interesting scenario on Wednesday night when playing in a £40 freezeout at The Western. This was a double stack tourney (5k starting stack) with 40 runners. I was swimming against the tide for the first 2 hours picking up junk and despite picking up a couple of pots was playing around 7k. Then the following hand occured. Blinds were 200-400 when i got AA on the button. The first player limped, folded around to me. The player in the small blind had checked his cards early and looked keen to play, he was pretty loose, would certainly play an ace, K-Q etc. He also had around 10k. The big blind looked totally disinterested and ready to much his hand. The original limper was playing just under 5k. Wanting action from at least one player and asuming the BB would be folding, (if he didnt then it was going to be a big tell) I raised to 1200. The SB called instantly, the BB folded, the limper ummed and aaghed and called. The flop came down 4c,5d,6h. The SB checked, the limper then bet 1200. With no flush draw and low cards my initial thoughts were this looked a pretty safe flop. If one of my oppo's had flopped a set then so be it but the original limper either looked like a monster, most probably qq or kk judging by my hand. I then decided that this was a time to attempt a slow play. If I could take this hand then it was a real opportunity to get myself a stack. I did consider moving all-in but was worried that I would get rid of the SB ,and as he and I both had the limper covered this would immediately get rid of any chance of building a side pot, which ultimately could be something of a safety net for me. So......i just called! The SB had a look at the flop, considered folding and then called. The turn bought the Jd. Now the SB decided to bet out 2k. This suggested to me that he was nut flushing. The limper now moves all in for his last chips - back to me and now not liking it much I move all-in for my remaining chips. The SB obviously calls for the 1.4k difference. Over they go..... SB : Ad 10d - nut flush draw Limper: 33 - open ended Moi: AA - winning No diamond is my initial cry! Followed swiftly by no 2 or 7. The river came the 2h. Gutted. Fingers burnt. Cries from the table of what you doing??? Why didnt you move in pre-flop, or the turn etc etc. OBviously I lost the hand - main pot, but I did pick up the side pot worth 2.8k. In hindsight I'm still pretty happy with my decisions. And i did manage to orchestrate a 2nd place finish from those remaining chips worth £270!!

[TopGun]

Re: Big Pair Coyness Thanks for the post elcaker and unlucky but I still think you have to bet that flop. with a 456 on the table and 2 callers to your PFR there are a LOT of danger cards on the turn. A 2, 3, 7 or 8 leaves you in a terrible position (only one card needed for a straight, plus two opponents) Also, if one of the players has a higher pocket pair, they have a couple of extra outs for free to hit their set... I think you have to make them pay to stay in the hand and there is enough money in there to make the pot worth winning right there and then. Don't risk going bust by giving two callers a free card on a dangerous board...

[billy the punter]

Re: Big Pair Coyness

I only just skim-read that' date=' but essentially, the only time it's worth slow-playing big pairs pre-flop is when you're in early position on an LAG table (with the AG part being more important than the L)[/quote'] Sorry dave I do not agree with this at all - for reasons explained above. Your theory is far too "by the book" for my liking. But like all the games' subtleties, it's what suits the individual. I missed a lot of these replies for some reason, thanks for the feedback guys. :ok

[seanfaz]

Re: Big Pair Coyness My opinion on this is quite different, so i will post it for extra controversy, which is what most of my posts seem to be generating! Ok, i will never limp UTG with them for 3 reasons. 1) because of the same reasons mentioned by billy. 2) it has become an obvious play, and your limp can scare the table. 3) i never ever open limp. However I am a huge fan of a slowplay with big pairs under certain conditions and in a certain way. If i open-raise and get re-raised i will often just flat call the re-raise with AA or KK as this is deceptive, and my opponent is betting almost every flop and alot of turns. I can smooth call the flop or raise, depending on texture. Or, when the effective stacks are short, maybe 20bb or so, i will flat call a pre-flop raise with the intention of again just calling or re-raising, or checking behing on the flop depending on texure. I mix up these plays with re-raises to keep my opponents guessing.

[ELCAKER]

Re: Big Pair Coyness i like much of what you say Sean - makes sense to me

[seanfaz]

Re: Big Pair Coyness Good, im glad i seem to be understood by at least one person lol! Yeah likewise, i think that your posts are more advanced thinking than the majority on this site.

[Samba_SamPa]

Re: Big Pair Coyness Yeah, you bunch of PL plebs! You could learn a lot from your esteemed 18 yr old high roller here..

[seanfaz]

Re: Big Pair Coyness Lol i didnt mean it like that, just that i like his posts better than most on here!

[Sir Puntalot]

Re: Big Pair Coyness

Lol i didnt mean it like that' date=' just that i like his posts better than most on here![/quote'] You have a lot to learn Sean. Etiquette and attitude are just 2 things you need to work on. Be careful with your future posts and learn what humility means too. I know that's the 3 big words all at once, but see how you go.

[seanfaz]

Re: Big Pair Coyness

You have a lot to learn Sean. Etiquette and attitude are just 2 things you need to work on. Be careful with your future posts and learn what humility means too. I know that's the 3 big words all at once, but see how you go.

I'm not saying any posts are bad - just that i like his above the rest that i have read! Nothing wrong with that surely.

[billy the punter]

Re: Big Pair Coyness

My opinion on this is quite different, so i will post it for extra controversy, which is what most of my posts seem to be generating! Ok, i will never limp UTG with them for 3 reasons. 1) because of the same reasons mentioned by billy. 2) it has become an obvious play, and your limp can scare the table. 3) i never ever open limp. However I am a huge fan of a slowplay with big pairs under certain conditions and in a certain way. If i open-raise and get re-raised i will often just flat call the re-raise with AA or KK as this is deceptive, and my opponent is betting almost every flop and alot of turns. I can smooth call the flop or raise, depending on texture. Or, when the effective stacks are short, maybe 20bb or so, i will flat call a pre-flop raise with the intention of again just calling or re-raising, or checking behing on the flop depending on texure. I mix up these plays with re-raises to keep my opponents guessing.

Maybe in the games you noramally play - but when you're playing at high level people do not all play like poor onliners.

[seanfaz]

Re: Big Pair Coyness Billy, you're posts are incredibly patronising, i am certain that you have not played in tougher fields than me, and i have already told you, i do play at high levels. Your last comment is ridiculous too, you highlighted "and my opponent is betting almost any flop and alot of turns", then said that this doesn't happen at a high level. So you think that after re-raising pre-flop, players never make a c-bet on the flop? Thats a bizarre thing to say

[billy the punter]

Re: Big Pair Coyness error

[billy the punter]

Re: Big Pair Coyness

Billy' date=' you're posts are incredibly patronising, i am certain that you have not played in tougher fields than me, and i have already told you, i do play at high levels. [/quote'] This screams of inexperience - you have no idea who I am. For years I played daily in cash games where the usual line-up included Channing, Stuart Nash, Coren, Tann, Persuad... then I wanted bigger stakes so started playing in the private games I mentioned elsewhere, the line up was usually included, Tony Hardy, Bobby Clarke, Teddy, Roland De Wolfe, Dave Gregory... This isn't a "mine's bigger than your's" - it's just meant to flag up how ridiculous your statement above is. You reckon yourself as a poker player but you're making assumptions without evidence, not wise for a poker player. No, I'm saying it doesn't happen 100% of the time like you suggested earlier. Anyway, good luck for the future think we're done with this discussion, I am anyway. If you play as good as you talk you will do ok.

[AJ]

Re: Big Pair Coyness

Billy, you're posts are incredibly patronising, i am certain that you have not played in tougher fields than me, and i have already told you, i do play at high levels.

All depends what you define as a high level. Your sharkscope stats on Ipoker (seanfaz) and Cryptologic (seanfaz) are amongst the worst I've ever seen, you also show as being in a loss on Stars (HeckelJeckel)and Full Tilt (Heckel_Jeckel) I know you won $3k for a $10 MTT buy in and that is a great result, a lot of what you say makes sense, but you are utterly disrespecful to a lot of players without having any idea of what they've done and what levels they've played at. For an 18 year old, it's not a good look.

[ELCAKER]

Re: Big Pair Coyness Billy you are a dark horse, aren't you?!! Do you still go to The Vic at all? I have looked at THAT PL game whenever in there and shuddered! I saw Channing sitting there one day with a mountain range of chips in front of him, some young guy re-raises pre flop into Channing's big blind. HE just smooth calls. The FLop comes king-diamond-diamond. The original raiser now checks. Channing then goes,"What!!! You're checking now. You must have hit trip kings. Well I am going to take a free card to try and improve!" Turn comes a blank. Now the young kid doesn't know what to do, so he bets 3/4 pot. Channing calls. River comes a diamond! Kid looks so sick. Channing goes," What you going to do now? The board hasn't paired....?" Kid bets pot, Channing re-raises pot, kid calls. Turns over trip kings...Channing has the flush! It was just magnificent speech play. It probably seems to anyone reading this that the kid had ample opportunity to fold at so many stages but there must have been a history to it all, Channing only talked because he KNEW it would work, and it did. It was truly world class. PS - for anyone who has loads of time to kill, Channing writes an impeccable weekly blog for Poker Verdict. IF you google search Neil Channing articles you should find them. They archive back at least 3 years and are a great great read.....

[seanfaz]

Re: Big Pair Coyness Billy, no i don't know who you are, i think i got a little caught up in it all to be honest, sorry mate. I know that i can learn from you and indeed other PL threads and posts, but i think that you too can learn from me. I enjoy the debate such as on the suited connectors thread, and i like to challenge and be challenged, it can only help all parties to improve. In regards to the continuation betting, no it doesn't happen 100% of the time depending on situation, but it certainly is at least around 90% of the time. AJ, i have a couple of things to say to your post. Firstly, those stats show that i clearly don't play SNGs, in over two years to only play 200 sngs would not make sense. Secondly, poker is not a results based game, although my MTT stats under those screen names are better than those above! I have a huge flaw (sort of) in my game at the moment which has really affected my stats, which is that both live and online, i have incredible consistency in getting really deep in tournaments, in great positions, such as 2nd with 12 remaining, and then finish 11th or 9th etc. My endgame is pretty bad, and i have had very bad luck at the end so far in my career. Also, the stats above don't include cash game results both live and online, or live tournament results. I can see my posts do look a little arrogant, and yes, i am probably a little too arrogant and i apologise - but who isn't when you're young?

[seanfaz]

Re: Big Pair Coyness Just out of interest billy, what is your name? I amy have played against you at the Vic before or elsewhere?

[ELCAKER]

Re: Big Pair Coyness I am guessing :drums:drums:drums Billy!!!!:lol:lol:lol

[seanfaz]

Re: Big Pair Coyness full name elcaker lol

[billy the punter]

Re: Big Pair Coyness

Billy you are a dark horse, aren't you?!! Do you still go to The Vic at all? I have looked at THAT PL game whenever in there and shuddered! I saw Channing sitting there one day with a mountain range of chips in front of him, some young guy re-raises pre flop into Channing's big blind. HE just smooth calls. The FLop comes king-diamond-diamond. The original raiser now checks. Channing then goes,"What!!! You're checking now. You must have hit trip kings. Well I am going to take a free card to try and improve!" Turn comes a blank. Now the young kid doesn't know what to do, so he bets 3/4 pot. Channing calls. River comes a diamond! Kid looks so sick. Channing goes," What you going to do now? The board hasn't paired....?" Kid bets pot, Channing re-raises pot, kid calls. Turns over trip kings...Channing has the flush! It was just magnificent speech play. It probably seems to anyone reading this that the kid had ample opportunity to fold at so many stages but there must have been a history to it all, Channing only talked because he KNEW it would work, and it did. It was truly world class. PS - for anyone who has loads of time to kill, Channing writes an impeccable weekly blog for Poker Verdict. IF you google search Neil Channing articles you should find them. They archive back at least 3 years and are a great great read.....

I only really go there for the odd tournament thesedays. The cash there is no limit now so that doesn't really interest me, and there's very little omaha. It certainly was a tough game and it's really where I learned the game - a fantastic education. I had a 21 consecutive-day winning streak in that game once - great days but even the thought of playing 21 days straight makes me queasy thesedays. The Vic is still the best legal place to play though - it's a real culture shock when you go to the Grosvenors in Brighton, Walsall and places like that.

[Sir Puntalot]

Re: Big Pair Coyness

I can see my posts do look a little arrogant, and yes, i am probably a little too arrogant and i apologise - but who isn't when you're young?

That statement just shows how naive you really are.

[seanfaz]

Re: Big Pair Coyness

That statement just shows how naive you really are.

How does it? What are you talking about? You don't know anything about me, how can you say things like that.

[slapdash]

Re: Big Pair Coyness Sean (and others), I have no illusions that I'm a great poker player. I think I'm a decent recreational player and enjoy challenging myself and improving. There are some aspects of the game that I think I understand very well, and there are others that I know I'm bad at. (Sadly for me, I expect a lot of the aspects that I really do understand tend to be those that don't matter very much. :() I'm a professional mathematician, and since PL is a betting forum there are discussions that come up from time to time that involve mathematics, and I try to give my input. Sometimes people don't get what I'm trying to say, and that can be a bit frustrating. I could just list my mathematical credentials and tell them that mine is advanced mathematical thinking, but firstly that's not my style, and secondly if people don't get what I'm saying then my first thought is "How could I have explained that better?" Now, Sean, when you started a post with "Let me explain my thoughts because it's advanced thinking," I strongly suspect it didn't quite come out the way you meant it to, but I'm sure you can understand why it put a few people's backs up. PL has a very wide range of poker players, from low-limit recreational players who just play for amusement to some very strong players. There are other poker forums that have far greater numbers of expert players, but I think one of the great strengths of PL is that by and large (and we're not perfect!) people of all levels can voice their opinions without being mocked or patronized by the stronger players. Anyway, I'm glad you seem to have taken on board some of the criticism, Sean, and I hope you continue to post. As you say, we can all learn from each other.

[seanfaz]

Re: Big Pair Coyness

Sean (and others), I have no illusions that I'm a great poker player. I think I'm a decent recreational player and enjoy challenging myself and improving. There are some aspects of the game that I think I understand very well, and there are others that I know I'm bad at. (Sadly for me, I expect a lot of the aspects that I really do understand tend to be those that don't matter very much. :() I'm a professional mathematician, and since PL is a betting forum there are discussions that come up from time to time that involve mathematics, and I try to give my input. Sometimes people don't get what I'm trying to say, and that can be a bit frustrating. I could just list my mathematical credentials and tell them that mine is advanced mathematical thinking, but firstly that's not my style, and secondly if people don't get what I'm saying then my first thought is "How could I have explained that better?" Now, Sean, when you started a post with "Let me explain my thoughts because it's advanced thinking," I strongly suspect it didn't quite come out the way you meant it to, but I'm sure you can understand why it put a few people's backs up. PL has a very wide range of poker players, from low-limit recreational players who just play for amusement to some very strong players. There are other poker forums that have far greater numbers of expert players, but I think one of the great strengths of PL is that by and large (and we're not perfect!) people of all levels can voice their opinions without being mocked or patronized by the stronger players. Anyway, I'm glad you seem to have taken on board some of the criticism, Sean, and I hope you continue to post. As you say, we can all learn from each other.

Slapdash i think that is a great post. I don't think i did mock or patronize any player, and if i did it was unintentional. I think its the way i write and my style of written argument etc which i have to use to write essays etc at uni lol. I think i also write as if i'm writing an article or a book or something, because i write quite alot of articles. As i say i welcome criticism and debate over playing a hand, and yes i do post on a number of different forums, and i am always trying to improve as a player, no player in the world is complete, playing perfect poker day in day out, not even billy the punter!! Lol only joking billy!