how do you play unplayable hands?

[teaulc]

we have all been in the same situation,but how do you deal with it? you get off to a great start in the early stages of a tourney and then off you go to a different table and before you know it your in trouble with having (unplayable?) cards that are awful. ie: 9/2o,2/3o etc..... for me this my bugbear and stopping me from improving my game,in the last 2 weeks i have bubbled 12 tourneys,4 of which i must admit i was chipleader, but i am unable to play what i consider shite cards,when if i had quite often i would have won the hand.# how do you deal with this??

[deadlydaveLDN]

Re: how do you play unplayable hands? There's no such thing as unplayable cards, just unplayable situations. As with everything in poker how you play comes down to your opponents, stack sizes, blind sizes, table image. Sorry for not being exactly helpful, but I do believe that no hands are unplayable.

[SteveO]

Re: how do you play unplayable hands? You can still raise in position with any 2 cards when folded round to you. If you get reraised it's an easy laydown if flat called you could get lucky and hit the flop and decide what to do from there. In the later stages you can raise a lesser amount 2- 2.5 times the bb and with the antes you need to pick up these uncontested pots.

[slapdash]

Re: how do you play unplayable hands? Or if you're in the blinds with, say, 20 BB, and a late-position player (who's not a rock and has roughly the same stack size as you) raises to 3 BB, then it's very often +EV to reraise him all-in with any two cards (assuming he doesn't think you're a maniac).

[billy the punter]

Re: how do you play unplayable hands? You cannot be regular tournament winner without stealing throughout. You do not need 'hands' to steal. Folded round to me in late position a lot of the time I'll be raising with any two cards. Steve O is spot on. My last live tourn was a £50 rebuy at the start of the summer, I raised in the cut-off with T3o - the cards were irrelevant obviously, it had folded around to me. I had something like 15k and I make it 1800 or there abouts (blinds 300-600) - something close to that anyway, you get the picture. Anyway, button moves in for about 2800 and blinds pass. Now I have to call, so the table saw my T3o. I couldn't believe that half the table nearly fell of their chairs, a few laughs too. I said that if you're stealing the cards don't matter. One of the laughers said "Nah, I'd much rather be stealing with JTx or 87x". He isn't a great player and although it seems like he is making sense, long-term he is so wrong. When you're on a blatant steal then it's better to do it with complete junk in a strange way. That way you are never under pressure with a decision when you're reraised properly (not like I was above with a small stack). Say I raise with JTx and the scenario is similar but this time I get raised by a big stack and he makes it 3800 to play. It's only 2000 more to me and there is 7k in the pot. It's hard to pass and it becomes a real chip burner, especially if you half-hit the flop. Stealing with filth takes that decision away and you can simply throw your hand away. After all, you wasn't playing the cards - you were stealing, playing the situation. And slapdash has described one of my favourite moves.

[SteveO]

Re: how do you play unplayable hands? That's a good point Bill of how it's better to raise with shit than say J10s, as you'll feel priced in and call. This often happens whereby you've had opportunities to raise and passed you then get 89s raise get min raised and you have to call and then totally miss the flop and leak a load of chips.

[slapdash]

Re: how do you play unplayable hands?

That's a good point Bill of how it's better to raise with shit than say J10s' date=' as you'll feel priced in and call. This often happens whereby you've had opportunities to raise and passed you then get 89s raise get min raised and you have to call and then totally miss the flop and leak a load of chips.[/quote'] I don't think that's really logical. If you raise with J10s and face a reraise then you might have a more difficult decision, but if you always fold when this happens then you're certainly no worse off than if you raised with shit and folded to a reraise. Having a half-decent hand and pretending it's shit is certainly better than having a shit hand and knowing it's shit. That's not to say that "pretending it's shit" is necessarily the best thing to do with a half-decent hand, but if you have a strategy for half-decent hands that does worse than the "knowing it's shit" strategy for shit hands, then it's obviously not the best strategy. (I just reread that paragraph, and even I was confused by it! Sorry, but I can't be bothered to rewrite it just now. :lol) If I try to steal with a hand that I'm not prepared to go all the way with pre-flop, then I'd rather have a hand where I'm more likely to hit the flop hard (like suited connectors), in case I'm called and get to see the flop.

[GaF]

Re: how do you play unplayable hands? Lol - were you a scriptwriter in "Yes Minister" in another life? :tongue2

[billy the punter]

Re: how do you play unplayable hands?

I don't think that's really logical. If you raise with J10s and face a reraise then you might have a more difficult decision' date=' [b']but if you always fold when this happens then you're certainly no worse off than if you raised with shit and folded to a reraise. Having a half-decent hand and pretending it's shit is certainly better than having a shit hand and knowing it's shit. That's not to say that "pretending it's shit" is necessarily the best thing to do with a half-decent hand, but if you have a strategy for half-decent hands that does worse than the "knowing it's shit" strategy for shit hands, then it's obviously not the best strategy. (I just reread that paragraph, and even I was confused by it! Sorry, but I can't be bothered to rewrite it just now. :lol) If I try to steal with a hand that I'm not prepared to go all the way with pre-flop, then I'd rather have a hand where I'm more likely to hit the flop hard (like suited connectors), in case I'm called and get to see the flop.

That's the thing though, passing when priced in isn't always easy, but like I said above - it's a real chip burner in NL. Not only preflop but post flop too if you half hit. Of course if called in these spots I'd rather have the better hands but at the later levels (when stealing is all important) I'm not sure you get much calling of raises, especailly not in the bigger tourns. So I think long term you'd burn off more chips (when thinking you're priced in, correctly so at times) than you would win when catching flops if called, IMO. Pretty hard to prove though ;). If that makes sense. :lol

[billy the punter]

Re: how do you play unplayable hands? Of course a lot depends on the individual here. If you can pass every time you're raised with these average hands then there isn't going to be any problems. Although one more point, with certain hands you might want to play, 99/JTx/AQx etc there is also an argument for not raising. Playing them cheaply, perhaps limping and calling one raise. You can win big pots with these hands playing meekly with them preflop (perhaps getting mult-way action) and there may be more long term value in doing so. Getting REraised when holding hands like this prices you out and folding them is a pain. In deep stack tourns I'm happy to limp with this sort of hand, rather than steal. But like we've always said, it's what works for your style. :ok

[slapdash]

Re: how do you play unplayable hands?

Lol - were you a scriptwriter in "Yes Minister" in another life? :tongue2

:lol :moon OK, let me try again. Suppose you're in exactly the same situation in two tournaments, where you have to decide whether or not to try to steal: (a) You have "shit" (J2o, say). Your strategy is to try to steal, but fold to a reraise. (b) You have a half-decent hand (J10s, say). What's your strategy? Here's a strategy for (b) that does at least as well as your strategy for (a): Try to steal, but fold to a reraise. In other words, you do exactly the same as you would with J2o preflop. Then there's no difference in the outcome for the two hands unless you see a flop: in other words, unless you are called but not raised. In the only case where the outcome is different (you're called and see a flop) then J10s is pretty clearly going to do better on average than J2o. Now I'm not claiming that this is necessarily the best preflop strategy with J10s: maybe there will be situations where you should call a reraise. But I've described a simple strategy for J10s which does better than your strategy for J2o. If you have an even better strategy for J10s that starts with a raise, then great!

[billy the punter]

Re: how do you play unplayable hands?

Of course a lot depends on the individual here. If you can pass every time you're raised with these average hands then there isn't going to be any problems. Although one more point, with certain hands you might want to play, 99/JTx/AQx etc there is also an argument for not raising. Playing them cheaply, perhaps limping and calling one raise. You can win big pots with these hands playing meekly with them preflop (perhaps getting mult-way action) and there may be more long term value in doing so. Getting REraised when holding hands like this prices you out and folding them is a pain. In deep stack tourns I'm happy to limp with this sort of hand, rather than steal. But like we've always said, it's what works for your style. :ok

Fk me! Negreanu has just said pretty much the same thing on poker after dark just then. :dude

[SteveO]

Re: how do you play unplayable hands? I bet alan will read all this and think "Fcuk me I wish I never asked":lol;)

[billy the punter]

Re: how do you play unplayable hands? :lol Yeah. slapdash is totally right if your raise is called. I'd like to do some stats but without doing so I'd say from the mid/late postition of tourn => bubble, I'd say you're more likely to get reraised than called. So perhaps the advantage of having a better hand if called carries less weight? I dunno. Can we lock the thread please....my head hurts. :lol

[SteveO]

Re: how do you play unplayable hands? I agree, usually in the later stages you're unlikely to get called unless; The caller has a very deep stack He's trapping with a monster Hands like AK -1010 are usually rearaised allin and even smaller pairs when the blinds and antes are so high.

[billy the punter]

Re: how do you play unplayable hands?

I agree, usually in the later stages you're unlikely to get called unless; The caller has a very deep stack He's trapping with a monster Hands like AK -1010 are usually rearaised allin and even smaller pairs when the blinds and antes are so high.

Indeed. In which case you want to miss. And T3o misses a lot! ;):lol

[teaulc]

Re: how do you play unplayable hands?

I bet alan will read all this and think "Fcuk me I wish I never asked":lol;)

not at all mate,this is exactly what i wanted to see. it is good to see that one of threads i started actually gets some sensible replies rather than the berating i usually get :tongue2:tongue2:dude:dude

[slapdash]

Re: how do you play unplayable hands?

I'd like to do some stats but without doing so I'd say from the mid/late postition of tourn => bubble, I'd say you're more likely to get reraised than called. So perhaps the advantage of having a better hand if called carries less weight? I dunno.

But my main point wasn't that J10s does better than J2o if you're called (though I think we all agree that it is, though). It was that, even if reraised, you can do at least as well with J10s as you can with J2o. Just by folding. If you're priced in with J10s, then by definition that means that you expect to do even better by calling the reraise than by folding. If you do worse with J10s than with J2o because you "have to" call a reraise, that means you're actually doing worse calling the reraise than you are by folding. So in fact you're not priced in.

[PlazaPlayer]

Re: how do you play unplayable hands? Hi Tea, my take on this is pretty much the same as above. But I find re-raising either in the small blind or the big blind to the button raise gets me those extra chips you need to stop bubbling. Players prey on people who tighten up near the money so fire back at them, we all know if they haven't got the goods all the time, and if they do shove after your re-raise your prob a 35% at worse dog anyway........ Plaza

[Dodger]

Re: how do you play unplayable hands?

I don't think that's really logical. If you raise with J10s and face a reraise then you might have a more difficult decision, but if you always fold when this happens then you're certainly no worse off than if you raised with shit and folded to a reraise. Having a half-decent hand and pretending it's shit is certainly better than having a shit hand and knowing it's shit. That's not to say that "pretending it's shit" is necessarily the best thing to do with a half-decent hand, but if you have a strategy for half-decent hands that does worse than the "knowing it's shit" strategy for shit hands, then it's obviously not the best strategy.

That's almost poetic! :notworthy If I had read this before being blinded out in the bubble (almost) last night I think I would have won the bloody game. :clap:clap:clap

[The Quiet Man]

Re: how do you play unplayable hands?

we have all been in the same situation,but how do you deal with it? you get off to a great start in the early stages of a tourney and then off you go to a different table and before you know it your in trouble with having (unplayable?) cards that are awful. ie: 9/2o,2/3o etc..... for me this my bugbear and stopping me from improving my game,in the last 2 weeks i have bubbled 12 tourneys,4 of which i must admit i was chipleader, but i am unable to play what i consider shite cards,when if i had quite often i would have won the hand.# how do you deal with this??

Hi Teaulc, Here's my tuppence worth...you may not like it tho'!:\ There are certainly no unplayable starting hands....especially if you're chip leader. :ok The problem you have is that I think you tend to play ABC Poker and therefore become quite easy to read (I'm the same)....the amount of times you've penned your frustrations in this Forum about being 'Bad Beat' once again, gives away so many clues about how you think when you're playing.:cry I'm sure I'm not the only one that enjoys seeing you on my table as every time you're in a pot I expect it to be a half decent starting hand from you which makes my decisions easier. :ok Next time you're chip leader start bullying from position and someone might stick up a 'sob story' saying that teaulc took out my KK with 59o...it happens and it feels great!:lol Good luck!:hope TQM

[teaulc]

Re: how do you play unplayable hands? appreciate that TQM,i am aware of my stance and style of play and do mix it a bit even with shite cards if i feel i can get away with it and will fold if i have to,i have the game i know but just need to sort out this part of it and it was great to get a good response so thanks all,hopefully this debate will carry on a bit longer :ok and :welcome to PL plazaplayer,hope you will like it here

[glceud]

Re: how do you play unplayable hands?

it is good to see that one of threads i started actually gets some sensible replies rather than the berating i usually get :tongue2:tongue2:dude:dude

Just stick to raising with aces and folding everything else, that the sort of reply you were expecting:tongue2

[happyhornet]

Re: how do you play unplayable hands? Great thread all:clap. Excellent advice from Billy, SteveO, Slap et al. Ican say, without hesitation, that this was the worst part of my game ( and there are plenty!!). Lots of money finishes, few FT's, and almost no wins. It seemed so odd to open with crap in a late position, and had I been live, the whole table would have laughed themselves stupid at me sitting there shaking and practically shitting myself!! I find now that it is easy to play looser and steal more, BUT also easy to start to fall back into old habits. That's the bit I need to avoid. Anyway I will be in the focus game later on, and have just revealed my tactics!!:unsure

[BAM]

Re: how do you play unplayable hands?

There's no such thing as unplayable cards' date=' just unplayable situations. As with everything in poker how you play comes down to your opponents, stack sizes, blind sizes, table image. Sorry for not being exactly helpful, but I do believe that no hands are unplayable.[/quote'] Excellent piece of advice and spot on as too many people think that cards matter. :welcome to PL deadlydave :ok

[chatoman]

Re: how do you play unplayable hands? Now this is an interesting topic... heres my opinion For me MTT poker is a game of situations rather than a game of cards. I actually play ATC from any position (of course... that depends of my chipstack). If im shorstacked, im sticking to my tight re-stealing game but if im in a comfortable position i think ill raise probably 3 times out of 9 (3 times per round); but if the guys to my left are waaay too tight, ill change it to 5 out of 10 (i HAVE to raise on CO, button and SB if they let me get away with it) The only thing i can advice here is to improve the postflop game, because the majority of players can play a solid TAA game, but when they face a call after a steal attempt, they just surrender so easily that is sometimes an easy thing build a huge stack postflop when bubble time approaches. And finally, as TQM said previously, about the badbeats.... im personally one of the guys who just love to take some chances when im the chipleader against the Tight players, cause they wont have AA or KK everytime they push, so if i've raised like 2.8bb preflop and the Tight fella went allin for 3bb more, i will be more than happy to call him with my J8s or 107s and take my 40-60 shot if they have overcards or my OC against low pockets (after all... i've created the right pot odds :lol). In my opinion.. in MTT poker, you are playing for the podium, so you have to play agressive (not donk agressive of course) otherwise it is not profitable to invest like 2, 3 or 4 hours just to get twice or three times your buyin back. Regards