AJ Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 How have I played and what do I do now ?? POKERSTARS GAME #19240800457: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.10/$0.25) - 2008/07/31 - 04:07:17 (ET) Table 'Kira II' 9-max Seat #1 is the button Seat 1: asjohnstone ($24.85 in chips) Seat 3: nutslos ($4.65 in chips) Seat 4: blue1179 ($37.10 in chips) Seat 5: stationbc ($24.65 in chips) Seat 6: beckstar911 ($22.75 in chips) Seat 7: CryptoTrio ($3.85 in chips) Seat 8: coz4concern ($3.30 in chips) Seat 9: Westenholz ($14.85 in chips) nutslos: posts small blind $0.10 blue1179: posts big blind $0.25 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to asjohnstone [4c As] stationbc: folds beckstar911: calls $0.25 CryptoTrio: folds coz4concern: folds Westenholz: folds asjohnstone: calls $0.25 nutslos: calls $0.15 blue1179: checks *** FLOP *** [8h 4s Ac] nutslos: checks blue1179: checks beckstar911: bets $1 asjohnstone: raises $2 to $3 nutslos: folds blue1179: folds beckstar911: calls $2 *** TURN *** [8h 4s Ac] [7h] beckstar911: checks asjohnstone: bets $4 beckstar911: calls $4 *** RIVER *** [8h 4s Ac 7h] [5s] beckstar911: checks asjohnstone: ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavham Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: River Play Played it ok, although a bigger bet on the turn would have been my play. I bet 8 - 10 here as you must be thinking aJ or something similar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whycantistayawayfromdogs Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: River Play i am almost never checking behind in this spot...I suppose the bet size depends on whether you are bet folding or whether you think the guy is the kind of retard that will jam it in with A9-AQ/J. I always find fishys will call small bets to the river (regardless of pot size/stack size and odds) but then when you throw out a larger value bet on the river they will fold out a lot of their range that you are beating. His stack size makes the bet size a bit harder. I was watchin a DC video the other day where they were talking about flop and turn play to set up a river shove, if you bet closer to pot on the turn, say 5.25, you have effective stacks of 14.25 on the river (rather than 15.50) and the pot is 17.25. I dont see how he turns up with a straight very often here (A6), and i expect to see AJ-A9 a bit, but Ax has turned into a number of better two pairs. Okay ill stop burbling, im starting to talk myself out of a big bet because i dont want to be raised getting like 10/1 or summin, the way hes played the hand (passive) imo means he is calling down with AX (non 2pairs) and only raising things that beat you. I say bet 6-8 and fold to a shove. Generally at micro, passive throughout the hand and then showing strength on the river means he has you. HMpff tougher than i thought.... so what happen? you lose to a set of Aces? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nade Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: River Play Think we can narrow his range on the flop after he calls right down to 88,44, Ax. Check call again on turn, very unlikely by two pair. Seems like he has an A didn't like your re-raise on the flop, doesn't really like his position in the hand on the turn but feels he has to call. Then check again on river which is unlikely for a straight, but if you've been aggro. often and as you're betting out every street here he may see value in check-raising a straight i don't know. Hands you're beating: A2,A3,A9,AT,AJ,AQ,AK. Hands you're losing to: A5,A6,A7,A8. Will discount 44,88, AK because people so rarely play them like this. So there's just a couple more hands that you're most likely beating then losing to. Pots $17.90 if my maths is right :unsure. I'd bet out about $6. Reasons - You will get called by every hand you beat. - It doesn't pot commit you to a re-raise where you're always beaten. - Opponent will very rarely re-raise with better 2 pair as the $6 bet looks highly suspicious. So $6 is a blocking value bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhornet Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: River Play I agree with what has been said above. You are up against an Ace, and the only thought is whether he has a better two pair or he has A6 for the straight. Half to 3/4 pot bet here for me aswell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whycantistayawayfromdogs Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: River Play Think we can narrow his range on the flop after he calls right down to 88,44, Ax. Check call again on turn, very unlikely by two pair. Seems like he has an A didn't like your re-raise on the flop, doesn't really like his position in the hand on the turn but feels he has to call. Then check again on river which is unlikely for a straight, but if you've been aggro. often and as you're betting out every street here he may see value in check-raising a straight i don't know. Hands you're beating: A2,A3,A9,AT,AJ,AQ,AK. Hands you're losing to: A5,A6,A7,A8. Will discount 44,88, AK because people so rarely play them like this. So there's just a couple more hands that you're most likely beating then losing to. Pots $17.90 if my maths is right :unsure. I'd bet out about $6. Reasons - You will get called by every hand you beat. - It doesn't pot commit you to a re-raise where you're always beaten. - Opponent will very rarely re-raise with better 2 pair as the $6 bet looks highly suspicious. So $6 is a blocking value bet. why is it that people can say pretty much the same as me, yet make it readable and not rubbish. Im thick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: River Play There's $15 in the pot so I push out $10, and he rereaises me all in. There is now $38 in the middle and it costs me $5 to see. I have to call this right ? POKERSTARS GAME #19240800457: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.10/$0.25) - 2008/07/31 - 04:07:17 (ET) Table 'Kira II' 9-max Seat #1 is the button Seat 1: asjohnstone ($24.85 in chips) Seat 3: nutslos ($4.65 in chips) Seat 4: blue1179 ($37.10 in chips) Seat 5: stationbc ($24.65 in chips) Seat 6: beckstar911 ($22.75 in chips) Seat 7: CryptoTrio ($3.85 in chips) Seat 8: coz4concern ($3.30 in chips) Seat 9: Westenholz ($14.85 in chips) nutslos: posts small blind $0.10 blue1179: posts big blind $0.25 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to asjohnstone [4c As] stationbc: folds beckstar911: calls $0.25 CryptoTrio: folds coz4concern: folds Westenholz: folds asjohnstone: calls $0.25 nutslos: calls $0.15 blue1179: checks *** FLOP *** [8h 4s Ac] nutslos: checks blue1179: checks beckstar911: bets $1 asjohnstone: raises $2 to $3 nutslos: folds blue1179: folds beckstar911: calls $2 *** TURN *** [8h 4s Ac] [7h] beckstar911: checks asjohnstone: bets $4 beckstar911: calls $4 *** RIVER *** [8h 4s Ac 7h] [5s] beckstar911: checks asjohnstone: bets $10 beckstar911: raises $5.50 to $15.50 and is all-in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavham Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: River Play Of course, but confidence goes down! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: River Play and of course I did, He turned over A6 and stacked me. But I'm struggling slightly with the moral of the story. Was a larger turn bet the answer ? There was $7 in the pot, I expected my $4 to take it down. I thought I was playing against AJ or AQ. If he'd slow played a set or A8, I'd be more accepting but I can't help think I've done something pretty stupid here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavham Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: River Play No i don't think you did anything wrong, even a $6 bet on the turn would'nt have put him off. So just vul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: River Play cheers :ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whycantistayawayfromdogs Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: River Play bet fold the river because ur losing a gazillion percent of the time. Thats what me and the articulate mr Nade were saying, bet less on river and fold to raise....A6 was the only straight he ever shows here, but there is so much other crap he calls in early thats beating you now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nade Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: River Play and of course I did, He turned over A6 and stacked me. But I'm struggling slightly with the moral of the story. Was a larger turn bet the answer ? There was $7 in the pot, I expected my $4 to take it down. I thought I was playing against AJ or AQ. If he'd slow played a set or A8, I'd be more accepting but I can't help think I've done something pretty stupid here Think my proposed bet solves the river problem (although exact calcs. wrong :eyes) - 1/3 bet would have got the info. without being pot committed, as i say you're behind pretty much 100% when check-raised on this river. In situations like this on the turn i like to think if an awful card comes on the river what would i do. If i'm still prepared to put my stack on the line then may as well bet bigger on the turn to swell the pot but it also gives more chance of taking the pot down. Had to bet the turn, slightly bigger bet may have discouraged the A6 but they probably call nearly all bets so only way you minimise damage is check behind or smaller bet on river. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: River Play jeez another badbeat thread :tongue2 Yep nothing wrong, I don't mind the turn bet either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsterling Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: River Play No one like a preflop fold here? :unsure As played, raise more on flop, if he has A he is probably coming along anyway. Make it $3.50 at the very least or $4. Bet more on turn to make any river decision easier. As played to river, I agree with the "less than half pot bet and probably fold to a shove without reads". The call pre is without doubt the worst action in the hand though. There's no need to be making positional calls with raggy offsuit aces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whycantistayawayfromdogs Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: River Play No one like a preflop fold here? :unsure omg lol yes i definately do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieGaz Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: River Play fold pre-flop for me too and also check on the river if ur not sure where ur at! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 Re: River Play No one like a preflop fold here? :unsure As played, raise more on flop, if he has A he is probably coming along anyway. Make it $3.50 at the very least or $4. Bet more on turn to make any river decision easier. As played to river, I agree with the "less than half pot bet and probably fold to a shove without reads". The call pre is without doubt the worst action in the hand though. There's no need to be making positional calls with raggy offsuit aces. It's a speculative call, late position to see a cheap flop, no one has raised in front of me, only a single caller. According to Poker Tracker I play a semi loose agressive agressive style, I'll see some cheap flops and attempt to steal if I sense weakness. The TAG thing works fine in tournements and you can play the harrington stuff, but at low limit cash I think agression is key and I'm happy to see a very cheap flop with a raggy ace. Even If I totally miss the flop, if no one has bet before me, or it looks like an obvious C bet, more often than not I'm ramming a pot sized bet into the flop to take it down. Too agressive ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsterling Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 Re: River Play It's a speculative call, late position to see a cheap flop, no one has raised in front of me, only a single caller. According to Poker Tracker I play a semi loose agressive agressive style, I'll see some cheap flops and attempt to steal if I sense weakness. The TAG thing works fine in tournements and you can play the harrington stuff, but at low limit cash I think agression is key and I'm happy to see a very cheap flop with a raggy ace. Even If I totally miss the flop, if no one has bet before me, or it looks like an obvious C bet, more often than not I'm ramming a pot sized bet into the flop to take it down. Too agressive ? Ha ha no, too passive. I personally very, very rarely limp the button. I never open limp it of course but overlimping wise, I would never overlimp with a raggy offsuit ace. If you raise the button here, thats fine, but limping it just seems to serve no purpose. Edit: and as for pokertrackers default player categories I wouldn't read into them. They are very outdated and perhaps just totally wrong in some cases. For example, it says in the "more detail" section that an aggression factor of less than 0.7 is passive and more than 1.5 is aggressive. When personally I regard anything under 3.0 I regard as pretty passive these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted August 1, 2008 Author Share Posted August 1, 2008 Re: River Play Ha ha no, too passive. I personally very, very rarely limp the button. I never open limp it of course but overlimping wise, I would never overlimp with a raggy offsuit ace. If you raise the button here, thats fine, but limping it just seems to serve no purpose. Edit: and as for pokertrackers default player categories I wouldn't read into them. They are very outdated and perhaps just totally wrong in some cases. For example, it says in the "more detail" section that an aggression factor of less than 0.7 is passive and more than 1.5 is aggressive. When personally I regard anything under 3.0 I regard as pretty passive these days. My agression factor in PT is 5.49 Not sure what it means, am I agressive enough ? What is everyone elses ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavham Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 Re: River Play Dog and nade suggest betting less on the river and if raised fold, my god i think this is bonkers, the only hands he is probably losing to is 66 or A6 ( if you follow the story of the hand) , If i played as you suggest i would be folding the best hand often. If this is the way you play (abc) you must find it tough to win, i would love to be at the same table as you guys as i would be taking most the pots off you (with shit) a simple raise and you fold 2 pair ideal. The other guy could be a good player and senses your bet is weak on the river, but is also aware you have him beat so he pushes to represent the 6 You must get away from standard ABC poker if you want to progress and move up the levels. As for your play AJ it was fine so dont get too annoyed about it, just ul as i said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nade Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 Re: River Play I respect your opinion Mole, but to make such an outlandish generalisation about how i play and should be playing because of 1 hand is total bollocks. I save the petty arguments for others but i'll just say FWIW i'm making a great income from 6max cash games on FTP probably the hardest site out there. And that doesn't happen by playing abc, that's a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whycantistayawayfromdogs Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 Re: River Play Dog and nade suggest betting less on the river and if raised fold, my god i think this is bonkers, the only hands he is probably losing to is 66 or A6 ( if you follow the story of the hand) , If i played as you suggest i would be folding the best hand often. If this is the way you play (abc) you must find it tough to win, i would love to be at the same table as you guys as i would be taking most the pots off you (with shit) a simple raise and you fold 2 pair ideal. The other guy could be a good player and senses your bet is weak on the river, but is also aware you have him beat so he pushes to represent the 6 You must get away from standard ABC poker if you want to progress and move up the levels. As for your play AJ it was fine so dont get too annoyed about it, just ul as i said. 25/50 doesnt equal .10/.25 The game is completely different, this guy has A-rag so damn often when he limps in early and bet/calls that flop - and when he raises the river you are [very nearly] 100% beaten. Maybe as an aside you could play some .10/.25 and report back on the differences in play!! :nana The other guy could be a good player and senses your bet is weak on the river, but is also aware you have him beat so he pushes to represent the 6 not down in the dungeons of poker, this happens like less than 0.000000001%, you lose your bankroll making crying calls this low down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whycantistayawayfromdogs Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 Re: River Play If this is the way you play (abc) you must find it tough to win, i would love to be at the same table as you guys as i would be taking most the pots off you (with shit) a simple raise and you fold 2 pair ideal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_complex :loon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 Re: River Play Do you play poker dog? if so what level/variant/site/years experience etc Its not a leading question, it is just that I have never seen you in any PL games or live tourneys/meets so I just wondered what you were upto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavham Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 Re: River Play I respect your opinion Mole, but to make such an outlandish generalisation about how i play and should be playing because of 1 hand is total bollocks. I save the petty arguments for others but i'll just say FWIW i'm making a great income from 6max cash games on FTP probably the hardest site out there. And that doesn't happen by playing abc, that's a fact. Ok nade fair enough, but the point remains the same folding here is bad play imo. Would you fold a set to the re raise ? But to improve i still think youve got to keep an open mind. If you understood my point then its something for you to consider. do with it what you will. And gl with your cash games ( i have nothing to gain by petty arguments, i am just voicing my opinion) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavham Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 Re: River Play 25/50 doesnt equal .10/.25 The game is completely different, this guy has A-rag so damn often when he limps in early and bet/calls that flop - and when he raises the river you are [very nearly] 100% beaten. Maybe as an aside you could play some .10/.25 and report back on the differences in play!! :nana Been there done that, thats why i was trying to give you the benefit of my experience. As for God complex, i strongly disagree, i am giving my opinion on something the way i see it. Thats what a forum is all about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 Re: River Play 25/50 doesnt equal .10/.25 The game is completely different, this guy has A-rag so damn often when he limps in early and bet/calls that flop - and when he raises the river you are [very nearly] 100% beaten. Maybe as an aside you could play some .10/.25 and report back on the differences in play!! :nana not down in the dungeons of poker, this happens like less than 0.000000001%, you lose your bankroll making crying calls this low down. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_complex :loon WCISARD, If you had ANY idea about the Mole you'd know that he got to 25/50 FROM the micro stakes games. Do you think he had a metamorphosis in that time, or do you think that he had the same fundamental skills at all levels? He is 'one of us' - he's practically a freeroller who did things the right way, worked his way through the levels and now makes a very nice living from poker. Ffs, if he had a god complex he'd have fcuked PL off long ago and joined 2+2 or Pocket5's or somewhere there are more people who regularly play at his level, but he stays around here beause he wants PLers to progress in the way he has. Btw, what Mole says about being able to bet players off hands at any level is true...the fcuker's done it to me more than once. :lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whycantistayawayfromdogs Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 Re: River Play Do you play poker dog? if so what level/variant/site/years experience etc Its not a leading question, it is just that I have never seen you in any PL games or live tourneys/meets so I just wondered what you were upto. I play in the very same games the hand came from, i play mainly .10/.20 and .25/.50 NLHE and PLO, im a student and ive been playing for 2/3 years now on and off without, started 'grinding' .05/.1 in june and im doing okay. I mostly play betfair, i like the software (when it isnt lagging) and its pretty much the only site that i can get 6 tables on my shitty little flat screen with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whycantistayawayfromdogs Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 Re: River Play WCISARD, If you had ANY idea about the Mole you'd know that he got to 25/50 FROM the micro stakes games. I dont think this is relevent as games have changed over time (bad players are mostly loose-passive pre flop and on the flop and TAG afterwards. I look at peoples opinions objectively and without bias. I disagree with him on this hand, and its starting to seem like that isnt allowed. As for the god complex thing, maybe a little over the top but i didnt like the comment, it would be a little bit sad if a winning 25/50 player couldnt outmaneuvre a .25/.50 player wouldnt it? So whats to brag about... In my opinion he played the hand pretty badly, in moles he played it perfectly, lets move on... PS dont stack off in unraised pots (especially in MSNL) without the [near] nuts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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