Define Your Hand, Try To Find Out Where You Are, But Then What???

[daftpegasus]

I think this is an interesting hand for the strategy thread. In any position other than the BB this is an easy fold, but with limpers you have to see a flop. A low buy in STT. Level 1 so no real read on anyone. I'm in the BB and get into the following situation: ***** Hand 1137365359 ***** 15.00/30.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit) - 26 June 2008 21:05:03 Pays 4 Places (Real/Tournament) Seat 1: marijose (6270.00) Seat 2: gogolch1 (1485.00) Seat 3: paddyplppl (1515.00) Seat 4: feedjo (1620.00) Seat 5: OLPUMA (1230.00) Seat 7: mowo (1380.00) Seat 10: De-Wolf (1500.00) mowo post SB 15.00 De-Wolf post BB 30.00 ** Deal ** marijose [N/A, N/A] gogolch1 [N/A, N/A] paddyplppl [N/A, N/A] feedjo [N/A, N/A] OLPUMA [N/A, N/A] mowo [N/A, N/A] De-Wolf [Qd, 4s] *** Bet Round 1 *** marijose Fold gogolch1 Call 30.00 paddyplppl Fold feedjo Call 30.00 OLPUMA Fold mowo Call 30.00 De-Wolf Check 3 Limpers holding Q4o I don't think it's worth a bluff/raise at this stage of the tournament *** Flop(Board): *** : [3s, 10c, Qs] *** Bet Round 2 *** mowo Check De-Wolf Check gogolch1 Check feedjo Bet 60.00 mowo Fold De-Wolf Raise to 240.00 gogolch1 Fold feedjo Call 240.00 Out of position and with TP but terrible kicker I decide to see how the others define their hand. 1 check and a fold to a weak bet give me the perfect position to undertake a check raise (about 125% of pot) to scare them all off and take down the pot. But I got a caller which made me think they're on a flush draw. *** Turn(Board): *** : [3s, 10c, Qs, 5s] *** Bet Round 3 *** De-Wolf Bet 450.00 feedjo Call 450.00 The third spade appears and I now redefine my hand with a 3/4 pot continuation bet. If he raises I know I'm right about the flush and I can get away from the hand with enough chips to play. He calls. Now I'm confused. Do I sense great strenght or weakness? *** River(Board): *** : [3s, 10c, Qs, 5s, 3h] The river is no help to me but puts me behind more possible hands. I have nearly half my chips in the middle. Any bet here has to be All In, but with only top pair??? What would you do? What do you put him on? I played the flop and turn expecting either a fold or reraise on both - did I play these wrong and get myself into this situation on the river through bad play.

[GaF]

Re: Define Your Hand, Try To Find Out Where You Are, But Then What??? Sorry - I think you committed way too many chips with way too weak a hand and out of position..... I dont understand your turn bet of 450 - you put him on a flush draw, which if your read was correct, hit, yet after that you still committed a third of your original stack? It's a mistake I make so often as well, and am trying hard to combat - a fear of showing weakness when OOP so betting into a passive opponent hard.

[Nade]

Re: Define Your Hand, Try To Find Out Where You Are, But Then What??? Firstly my view on SNGs is to be very tight the first couple of levels. So with this being my mindset i'd either bet this out about 80, then check/ fold down to the river or check fold straight away. Check raise with a weak hand is a dangerous play, particularly OOP and this early in the tourn, but in terms of defining others' hands i think it's a good move. Problem is if i was to face any sort of resistance in the form of a call or re-raise i'd be then check/folding it down afterwards so it's essentially a waste of 160 chips. Again the turn, with my mindset early in these SNGs i'd be shutting down quicker then Gretna FC especially with the 3rd spade coming. Your opp. has bet out the flop, called a re-raise so we've got to figure they have a Q or spade draw. As played on the river i'd again be check/ folding as surely surely surely your opp. isn't playing Jdkd (i.e. only hand you beat) and if they are then mark them a fish and move on. General rule of thumb in my strategy in SNGs is preserve chips for when the blinds get big, i'd take a stab at this pot say 70/80 on the flop but totally shut down after that. What they had? Js9s seems very likely

[daftpegasus]

Re: Define Your Hand, Try To Find Out Where You Are, But Then What???

I dont understand your turn bet of 450 - you put him on a flush draw, which if your read was correct, hit, yet after that you still committed a third of your original stack?

Whilst I think he had the flush draw I bet here to represent the flush myself. I felt he couldn't call/raise unless he had the flush - hence it was a good card for a bluff from me. The size of the bet on the turn had to be that size IMO because of the reraise post flop. I was trying to remove any odds to call unless he'd hit.

[voiceofjoe]

Re: Define Your Hand, Try To Find Out Where You Are, But Then What??? I'm in agreement with GaF here (first time for everything !!) TBH you've played this awfully IMO. The Blinds are so small you're going to get far better situations than this to get half your stack in the middle with. If I'd have played this I would have check-called the flop, then when the turn comes another spade I've finished with the hand. Its hard enough playing any hand OOP never mind Top Pair - Crap Kicker. His 60 into the turn may well have been a blocker bet - but OOP your'e in the wrong position to find out by betting. Also you say your re-defining your hand on the turn, but the check raise on the flop is hardly telling the story of a Flush Draw - ?? So what where you trying to represent when the 3rd Spade came down?? Theres no shame in folding and finding a better situation - in position

[daftpegasus]

Re: Define Your Hand, Try To Find Out Where You Are, But Then What???

Firstly my view on SNGs is to be very tight the first couple of levels. So with this being my mindset i'd either bet this out about 80' date=' then check/ fold down to the river or check fold straight away. [/quote'] This is how I normally play - to this point in the game I had not played a hand. However I've had a break from poker, realised that I'm probably quite easy to read because my natural game is very ABC. Hence trying to play a wider range of hands, play more agressively and try to get a better picture of my opponents. Post flop I sensed weakness and saw the opportunity to play my opponents not the cards. Again my natural game would have been to check the flop and fold to his raise concerned by my weak kicker.

[Nade]

Re: Define Your Hand, Try To Find Out Where You Are, But Then What???

Whilst I think he had the flush draw I bet here to represent the flush myself. I felt he couldn't call/raise unless he had the flush - hence it was a good card for a bluff from me. The size of the bet on the turn had to be that size IMO because of the reraise post flop. I was trying to remove any odds to call unless he'd hit.

Get in the mind of your fishy opponent (Low stakes they won't be great) You've check raised representing a flush draw? At a high level this could work (but again unlikely early into a tournament without any reads on you), check-raising is representing a Q, two pair or set to them (and pretty much everyone) so it gives them all the license in the world to call with a flush draw reckoning that a) they'll get paid off by your supposedly big hand and b) you won't have a bigger flush. Representing a flush only really works by calling a bet on the flop, then if the card hits betting strong on the turn or check-raising. Have to say in his mind he'll be thinking if you have a flush here after check raising the flop you're a maniac ;)