How tight/loose UTG on 5 seat cash tables?

[slapdash]

Here's a question for the experts. UTG, in a 5-handed cash game, what's the lowest kicker with which you'd open Ax? Kx? Does it make much difference if you're suited? OK, I know the answer is going to be "it depends", but roughly where would you consider the boundary between loose and tight?

[GaF]

Re: How tight/loose UTG on 5 seat cash tables? My VPIP from position 2 off the button on 5 seaters: AK 100% AQ 100% AJs 83.33% AJo 86.67% ATs 66.67% ATo 78.95% A9s 0% A9o 12.5% A8 0% A7s 67% (only 3 hands) A7o 0% A6 0% A5 0% A4s 0% A4o 6.25% A3 0% A2s 33% (1 hand from 3) A2o 0% Total - 233 Ax hands I'm probably playing them too tight though :unsure For Kx: KQ 66.78% KJs 0% KJo 16.67% KTs 20% KTo 33.33% All other Kx are 0%

[Nade]

Re: Slapcash UTG for me does depend on my table image. If it's tight then i'll raise with A5+ from any position, if loose then A10+. And i rarely raise with any other K than KQ,KJ,KT in LP short handed. UTG if tight image i might raise with KJs, and KT to mix it up sometimes. Good luck with this :ok

[Nade]

Re: Slapcash UTG for me does depend on my table image. If it's tight then i'll raise with A5+ from any position, if loose then A10+. And i rarely raise with any other K than KQ,KJ,KT in LP short handed. UTG if tight image i might raise with KJs, and KT to mix it up sometimes. Good luck with this :ok

[Nade]

Re: How tight/loose UTG on 5 seat cash tables? Just posted this in other thread: UTG for me does depend on my table image. If it's tight then i'll raise with A5+ from any position, if loose then A10+. And i rarely raise with any other K than KQ,KJ,KT in LP short handed. UTG if tight image i might raise with KJs, and KT to mix it up sometimes. It also 'depends' ;) a lot for me on how loose the players in the CO and button are. If they like to 3-bet a lot then i'll only raise with AT+ and KJ+ UTG. Because although your A6 for example will be ahead of their range it's just a total ball-ache to play against these guys with a marginal hand OOP and with it being shorthanded there are more then enough opportunities to get involved in better spots imo.

[BAM]

Re: How tight/loose UTG on 5 seat cash tables? I'm not sure I understand the question but I'd be raising with any A or K UTG.

[GaF]

Re: How tight/loose UTG on 5 seat cash tables?

I'm not sure I understand the question but I'd be raising with any A or K UTG.

Wow - I accept I'm too tight - but surely that's too loose? Is this 5 seat Boss tables, or 6 seat cash tables elsewhere? Do you track your results with Pokertracker? Would you be comfortable sharing any stats(similar to what I've done?)

[ubermonkey1]

Re: How tight/loose UTG on 5 seat cash tables? i play pretty much the same as the wasp:ok sometime if i have an ultra aggressive player behind me then i might cool it off a little(like a8+or k9+)but not very often.i treat every table as a single entity so it doesn't really matter what site. raising constantly with these sorts of hands gives you a lot of disguise when you do hit a monster hand and also gives you more info on your opponents holding. as long as you feel confident of your ability to outplay your opponent post flop its always good to get a bit of money in pre flop. once i get a decent amount of info from poker tracker i'll put it up(might be after you go tho:sad) i also employ this in sh stt's as well:ok in fact that's exactly how i played in the paradise stt league a year or 2 back. i seem to remember getting a $217 profit in a month on $5 stts and cashing 12 on the trot so there must be something in it;)

[Nade]

Re: How tight/loose UTG on 5 seat cash tables? I find it very hard to believe Uber and WASP raise with K2o and the like UTG every time. If you do then it's just reckless. I'm probably one of the most open-minded when it comes to strategy but no amount of persuasion is going to convince me raising any K UTG short handed is a winning play. Ever.

[slapdash]

Re: How tight/loose UTG on 5 seat cash tables? I played one session yesterday (so before WASP posted), trying out opening about as loosely as he said (though not quite ... I was folding the weaker kings UTG). I said when I posted the question that I knew the answer would be "it depends". I think one thing it probably depends on quite heavily is the standard of the opposition. On the 5-handed €0.12/€0.25 tables I was on, the typical player is loose/passive. I won a few hands with rag aces where it got to the river and I had nothing much but was ahead; but it was quite hard to make much on these hands, as it was basically impossible to tell where you were: if you had a pair of aces with a mediocre kicker and made a bet, then you could be called by two pair, aces with a better kicker, second pair, gutshot straight draw, ... just about anything. On the other hand, it's probably very profitable at these tables if you play ace-rag and hit two pair: you can probably get paid off quite handsomely if somebody else just has an ace.

[BAM]

Re: How tight/loose UTG on 5 seat cash tables?

I find it very hard to believe Uber and WASP raise with K2o and the like UTG every time. If you do then it's just reckless.

Yep Benn and I have always been reckless :lol Do you not think K high is good on a 5 handed table?

[ubermonkey1]

Re: How tight/loose UTG on 5 seat cash tables? yeah i might not raise every time with k high ,but i might on a table of rocks;) i'm amazed how many people will only play high aces and ks short handed:loonif they do i have a pretty good idea what their holding is :ok if i then hit 2pair on the flop as slap said a lot of the time i will double thru,on the other hand if i get a danger flop i can easily lay it down ,not so easy to lay down ak etc tho;) on the other hand things get trickier vs another opponent thats playing the same way, which is why i tighten up a little on my range(but not a huge amount)but maybe get more aggressive with my bets:ok a lot of this is a similar vein to the discussion on hens play in the "good to talk "thread. it may look reckless :loonbut reckless is going into something without a plan of action.if you think you can outplay your opponents then why not try:) don't get me wrong, i won't play like that all the time. i will shift up and down the gears a bit, just to make me even harder to read, but i think i play best when loose aggressive. also i wouldn't use this as a shortstack strategy:lol it only works with good implied odds ,so biggish stacks only;). and it's not a very good idea for newbies either. you are relying on good reads etc that are gained from experiance ,which of course a newbie wouldn't have. in fact playing like this is probably the worst thing a newbie can do:spankas you can very easily lose a lot with bad post flop play.

[gavham]

Re: How tight/loose UTG on 5 seat cash tables? My view is there is no utg in a short handed game, Havnt read the replies here, but if you have an ace in a 5 handed game thats a strong starting hand so it should be played as such.

[robsterling]

Re: How tight/loose UTG on 5 seat cash tables?

Yep Benn and I have always been reckless :lol Do you not think K high is good on a 5 handed table?

Whether it "is good" isn't really the point, K2o isn't the type of hand I would like to be playing out of position post flop regardless of how well I play. Also if you are opening wide obviously any decent button/cut off will be repopping you wide.

[slapdash]

Re: How tight/loose UTG on 5 seat cash tables?

My view is there is no utg in a short handed game

I understand what you're saying. But when I said "UTG", I wasn't trying to prejudge the issue by suggesting you were "out of position", I was just trying to give a precise question. By the way, how much do your opening requirements vary with position in a 5-handed game?

Whether it "is good" isn't really the point' date=' K2o isn't the type of hand I would like to be playing out of position post flop[/quote'] As the mole's answer suggested, UTG in a 5-handed game isn't really "out of position" post flop. It's exactly middle position, and you're probably more likely to be called by the blinds, so it may even count as early position?

[Nade]

Re: How tight/loose UTG on 5 seat cash tables?

Whether it "is good" isn't really the point' date=' K2o isn't the type of hand I would like to be playing out of position post flop regardless of how well I play. Also if you are opening wide obviously any decent button/cut off will be repopping you wide.[/quote'] Exactly. I play .50/1 on FTP and the more you raise pre flop the more you get 3-bet so you've got to be very prudent with your raising ranges in certain positions and know that raising any K UTG isn't any sort of option. Re. Implied odds. Not sure i agree. You may as well raise with 89s UTG for extra disguise value giving more implied odds i feel then A2o for example. The chances of A2J with opponent holding AK and you stacking them is far outweighed by the times you get 3-bet by AK, call with 'implied odds' and end up calling down bets with top pair weak kicker. In fact any time an A comes it's a scare card so you're not going to get any action unless your opponent holds A, with big kicker or a set. Which actually ends up giving you reverse implied odds where you're only going to get action most of the time by a hand which is beating you.

[robsterling]

Re: How tight/loose UTG on 5 seat cash tables? Put it this way, if you are opening with any pair, any ace, any king, any broadway you are open raising well over 30% of hands UTG (mid position whatever you want to call it). Even more if you open a few suited connectors. It is unlikely this would go undetected by any obvservant button/cut off so they will be calling and more importantly reraising you liberally in position. I think there are easy ways to win than by putting yourself in this position. And also opening less hands would allow you to play more tables.

[gavham]

Re: How tight/loose UTG on 5 seat cash tables? Not a great deal to be honest slapdash, again it depends how aggresive the table is.

[BAM]

Re: How tight/loose UTG on 5 seat cash tables? you guys should be in Vegas I tell yer ;)

[GaF]

Re: How tight/loose UTG on 5 seat cash tables? Been looking at this on 2plus2 and they have a suggested pre flop six max starting hand requirement as: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=89764

Preflop Chart

First thing to do with preflop is a general hand chart. This is a style that was successful for me. You need to keep in mind preflop that different table conditions and your image on each table can vastly shift these ranges. As you gain a clear understanding of how these factors should change your ranges then you can move away from this rigid form of play.

Raises should always be 4 x the big blind + 1 big blind for every limper

e.g If two guys limp and you are on the button with AK in .05-.10c game you should make it .60c.

Open raise the following hands (open raise means if no-one has raised or limped).

These positions are dependent on how far from the button you are so if its less than six handed then change accordingly.

Early Position

UTG (3 from button)

22 + AJo + ATs – AKs TJs, QJs, KQs KQo, AKo 56s – T9s (consider raising from time to time, especially if there are weaker players in the blinds)

UTG + 1 (2 from button)

22 + ATo + A2s + TJs, QJs, KQs, KJs QJo, KJo, KQo, AKo 56s – T9s (consider raising from time to time, especially if there are weaker players in the blinds)

Late Position

Something interesting from a theory perspective, if you look at the small blinds fold SB to steal stat and the big blinds fold BB to steal stat, if they multiply to be > 0.7 and you assume every time they don’t fold you never win the hand then theoretically you can raise any two profitably. If you consider you make money with these hands then this 0.7 number can be lowered further.

CO (1 from button)

22 + A8o + A2s + T8s, 98s, T9s, TJs, QJs, KQs, KJs, KTs, QTs, K9s, Q9s, J9s TJo, QTo, QJo, KTo, KJo, KQo, AKo 56s – T9s

Button

The majority of your money comes from the button. 30-40% of my profits come from the button so you want to abuse it.

22+ Any Ax o / Ax s Kx suited Any suited connector 54s or better Any one gapper 68s or better Any two gapper T7s or better Any connector 89o or better J8s +, J9o+ Q8s +, Q9o+ K9o +

Blinds

This is the area I struggle with the most and when you’re starting out I recommend playing a very tight range in the blinds.

Small blind when it folds to you (pretty much same as UTG+1)

22 + A8o + A2s + TJs, QJs, KQs, KJs QJo, KJo, KQo, AKo

Big Blind when it folds around and someone completes (same as CO)

22 + A9o + A8s + T8s, 98s, T9s, TJs, QJs, KQs, KJs, KTs, QTs, K9s, Q9s, J9s TJo, QTo, QJo, KTo, KJo, KQo, AKo

Big blind when there are a few limpers

99+ (sometimes raise with lower pockets if the table is fishy) AQo + KQs + AKo

[GaF]

[Nade]

Re: How tight/loose UTG on 5 seat cash tables? Nice table :ok

[BAM]

Re: How tight/loose UTG on 5 seat cash tables? I can guarantee if you use that table on any level above $1/2 you will not make any money :ok

[GaF]

Re: How tight/loose UTG on 5 seat cash tables? It's lucky I dont play $1/$2 then ;) It's designed specifically for micro stakes (up to 25c/50c) and specifically for newer players. I appreciate the weaknesses of it, however I've lost a lot of confidence recently, and I get some comfort from "going back to basics" and having pretty tight "rules" to use. As I build my confidence again I can look to evolve to playing my own way again.... Slapdash, pretty new to 6max, could do a lot worse than a guideline like this until he's built up some experience of his own.....

[Nade]

Re: How tight/loose UTG on 5 seat cash tables? I was going to say it's best for noobs but didn't want to patronize ;)

[slapdash]

Re: How tight/loose UTG on 5 seat cash tables?

I can guarantee if you use that table on any level above $1/2 you will not make any money :ok

Slapdash, pretty new to 6max, could do a lot worse than a guideline like this until he's built up some experience of his own.....

I was going to say it's best for noobs but didn't want to patronize ;)

Don't mind me! :sad :unsure You lot just decide what's best for me and let me know when you've agreed. :$ ;)

[robsterling]

Re: How tight/loose UTG on 5 seat cash tables? Quite a good guide for micro, obvious a lot of leighway. Should be way more red ones though, I mean on the right table I'll open virtually any two on the button when its folded to me, but even generally I think you can and should profitably open wider than that OTB.