GaF Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Quite a nice flop for me - top pair with Queen kicker and a Queen high flush draw. I like these hands because you can bet them aggressively - your opponent may be on a draw or some other weak holding - I can bet it aggressively knowing that I can win the hand multiple ways (May already be ahead, may win if I hit my draw, may force my opponent to fold a better hand as I can be aggressive.... What should my "gameplan" be throughout the hand from here? ***** Hand 1092896962 ***** 10.00/20.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 23 May 2008 21:02:38 Poker League (Real /Tournament ) Seat 1: cossac (1500.00) Seat 2: ncardeira+ (1490.00) Seat 3: PLwarbirds (1460.00) Seat 4: saja777 (1570.00) Seat 5: BosanacBiH (1500.00) Seat 6: Dedo68 (1500.00) Seat 7: JMourinho1 (1500.00) Seat 8: PLTelepee (1480.00) Seat 9: PLdobbin (1500.00) PLwarbirds post SB 10.00 saja777 post BB 20.00 ** Deal ** cossac [N/A, N/A] ncardeira+ [N/A, N/A] PLwarbirds [N/A, N/A] saja777 [N/A, N/A] BosanacBiH [N/A, N/A] Dedo68 [N/A, N/A] JMourinho1 [N/A, N/A] PLTelepee [Jd, Qs] PLdobbin [N/A, N/A] *** Bet Round 1 *** BosanacBiH Call 20.00 Dedo68 Fold JMourinho1 Fold PLTelepee Call 20.00 PLdobbin Fold cossac Call 20.00 ncardeira+ Fold PLwarbirds Call 20.00 saja777 Check *** Flop(Board): *** : [3s, 8s, Js] *** Bet Round 2 *** PLwarbirds Check saja777 Bet 100.00 BosanacBiH Fold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Re: Flop top pair (Q Kick) and Q high Flush draw - what's gameplan? You have to be very cautious in this hand as your flush could be drawing dead as it's likely that someone else has a Ks or As. You know how bad players are in this league so if you raise to define your hand you know someone could well call your bet with a lower flush draw or absoulute crap so I'd play it passively and just call and see how he acts on the turn. You also have 2 players left to act behind so I'd definitely just flat call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Re: Flop top pair (Q Kick) and Q high Flush draw - what's gameplan? Nah, agression is called for, pot sized bet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Re: Flop top pair (Q Kick) and Q high Flush draw - what's gameplan? Not in the early stages when the blinds are low and all the mainiacs are still in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Re: Flop top pair (Q Kick) and Q high Flush draw - what's gameplan? I probably would have folded preflop mid position with a marginal hand, its not worth the hassle early on, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Re: Flop top pair (Q Kick) and Q high Flush draw - what's gameplan? I'd have folded preflop also cos it isn't sssssooooooooooooooootted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted May 23, 2008 Author Share Posted May 23, 2008 Re: Flop top pair (Q Kick) and Q high Flush draw - what's gameplan? Stacks are 75xBB - is it not worth a look for the implied odds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Re: Flop top pair (Q Kick) and Q high Flush draw - what's gameplan? If the flop comes JJQ or QQJ you're laughing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Re: Flop top pair (Q Kick) and Q high Flush draw - what's gameplan? Stacks are 75xBB - is it not worth a look for the implied odds? Maybe :unsure each to their own but for me if you are routing out implied odds hands and bullet busters suited connectors and low drawing cards are best. QJo has so many ways of looking good on the flop and still losing you a packet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhornet Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Re: Flop top pair (Q Kick) and Q high Flush draw - what's gameplan? It's a borderline call pre-flop for me, but once the flop hits, I'm with AJ, raise it up baby :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Intensity Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Re: Flop top pair (Q Kick) and Q high Flush draw - what's gameplan? Don't really see the point in calling pre flop - you've hit that flop pretty hard and still with 5 people in you can't be sure where you are at all:unsure. If you play it surely a nice little raise to 80 would get rid of a couple of them and make it easier to play on the flop. The only time having a lot of people in the flop is if you really hit it like QQ7 and can try to get someone to hit an A or something on the turn. Anyway, on the flop with 5 people in. In this situation I'd probably call most of the time but sometimes raise to 300. If I called then I'd put it down to a raise or hopefully see what the turn brings. I'd call another bet on the turn but hopefully get the chance to bet out and take it down. If the A or K of spades came I'd probably try to keep the pot smallish by check/calling. Similar if I hit a set or two pair, maybe bet out if I can incase anyone still had the A or K of spades. If I raised then I'd put it down to a re-raise. I'd be worried if the raise got called, and probably he passive on the turn. Overall it's a pretty tough situation, if you really go for it you could be drawing dead and go out on level 1. But it's not a bad hand, I'd be trying to keep it small and win a medium pot if I hit the best flush or the Q is good. Wouldn't go close to all in, unless the A or K of spades came (hopefully both:lol). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nade Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Re: Flop top pair (Q Kick) and Q high Flush draw - what's gameplan? Pre flop i'd prefer a couple more limpers and later position to limp but if you're confident in your post flop play then limping is ok imo. Post flop i'm re-raising. Reason is i think the initial bettor has a J and doesn't want to see a spade come off so is betting to win the pot there, which i think is to your advantage as you can build the pot, confident of winning it on any street, and if they call it disguises your spade a little more. I think the value play is a raise. To about 220. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Re: Flop top pair (Q Kick) and Q high Flush draw - what's gameplan? A think all the raise does there is build a bigger pot when you want to try and keep it small. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nade Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Re: Flop top pair (Q Kick) and Q high Flush draw - what's gameplan? A think all the raise does there is build a bigger pot when you want to try and keep it small. Interested to know why you'd want to keep the pot small when you have top pair with a big kicker and probably drawing to the best flush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Re: Flop top pair (Q Kick) and Q high Flush draw - what's gameplan? Interested to know why you'd want to keep the pot small when you have top pair with a big kicker and probably drawing to the best flush. I cant speak for Steve but the flush draw could be dead, you could be out kicked and you could already be behind to trips - it is early so dont push it, play small ball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Re: Flop top pair (Q Kick) and Q high Flush draw - what's gameplan? Nade you don't know that and with 2 people left to act behind I think raising is the wrong option. Now if there were 2 spades on the flop and 2 spades in my hand I'd be happy to raise but not in this situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nade Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Re: Flop top pair (Q Kick) and Q high Flush draw - what's gameplan? Fair enough guys, i see your PoV and nothing wrong with it imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Re: Flop top pair (Q Kick) and Q high Flush draw - what's gameplan? Fair enough guys' date=' i see your PoV and nothing wrong with it imo.[/quote'] Its what makes this one interesting Nade and I guess why GaF has chosen this hand (he's so clever :eyes). Its a situation where you can win small or lose big so it is best not to build the pot IMO. I had a very similar situation in a big tourney recently except I hit the Q but I kept betting into a guy with KK and lost a third of my stack :wall Be good to see how it played out but I hope its a bad beat for the integrity of the thread ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubermonkey1 Posted May 24, 2008 Share Posted May 24, 2008 Re: Flop top pair (Q Kick) and Q high Flush draw - what's gameplan? i'm with steveo and wasp on this:ok after all there isn't just a draw on the flop, someone may already have the nut flush:loon so whether you have top pair or a draw your still dead in the water. if there were less players in the pot i would be reraising to find out where i was, but with 4 still left in the pot i would flat call and see how the hand progressed. with a bit more info on saja i might even fold then. if he seemed solid ,then a pot sized bet into a 5 way pot from the bb would be a worry for me.you only have 20 invested so far and with 2 half decent possible hands instead of one good one, i might well let it go . i would have flat called with this hand pre flop but i would be looking for a better flop than that to go to war on qq ,jj ,qj or straight possabilitys:ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted May 24, 2008 Author Share Posted May 24, 2008 Re: Flop top pair (Q Kick) and Q high Flush draw - what's gameplan? Be good to see how it played out but I hope its a bad beat for the integrity of the thread ;) Wasn't planning on putting any more of the hand up - certainly no bad beat there. I think I flat called, turn was a blank, he put a big bet out and I folded :unsure (I seriously cannot remember, I could be wrong). My initial instinct at the time though was that I played it too passively and could/should have bet it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted May 24, 2008 Author Share Posted May 24, 2008 Re: Flop top pair (Q Kick) and Q high Flush draw - what's gameplan? No I tell a lie (just dug out the hand history) and I donked off faaaaar too many chips on the hand. I hit the flush on the river, but he had the Ks (with the Jc) - so as it happens I was in pretty bad shape throughout.... ***** Hand 1092896962 ***** 10.00/20.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 23 May 2008 21:02:38 Poker League (Real /Tournament ) Seat 1: cossac (1500.00) Seat 2: ncardeira+ (1490.00) Seat 3: PLwarbirds (1460.00) Seat 4: saja777 (1570.00) Seat 5: BosanacBiH (1500.00) Seat 6: Dedo68 (1500.00) Seat 7: JMourinho1 (1500.00) Seat 8: PLTelepee (1480.00) Seat 9: PLdobbin (1500.00) PLwarbirds post SB 10.00 saja777 post BB 20.00 ** Deal ** cossac [N/A, N/A] ncardeira+ [N/A, N/A] PLwarbirds [N/A, N/A] saja777 [N/A, N/A] BosanacBiH [N/A, N/A] Dedo68 [N/A, N/A] JMourinho1 [N/A, N/A] PLTelepee [Jd, Qs] PLdobbin [N/A, N/A] *** Bet Round 1 *** BosanacBiH Call 20.00 Dedo68 Fold JMourinho1 Fold PLTelepee Call 20.00 PLdobbin Fold cossac Call 20.00 ncardeira+ Fold PLwarbirds Call 20.00 saja777 Check *** Flop(Board): *** : [3s, 8s, Js] *** Bet Round 2 *** PLwarbirds Check saja777 Bet 100.00 BosanacBiH Fold PLTelepee Call 100.00 cossac Call 100.00 PLwarbirds Fold *** Turn(Board): *** : [3s, 8s, Js, Ac] *** Bet Round 3 *** saja777 Check PLTelepee Check cossac Bet 200.00 saja777 Fold PLTelepee Call 200.00 *** River(Board): *** : [3s, 8s, Js, Ac, 9s] *** Bet Round 4 *** PLTelepee Check cossac Bet 400.00 PLTelepee Call 400.00 *** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 1600.00 cossac [Jc, Ks] Flush to the king Win: 1600.00 ncardeira+ Fold Win: 0.00 PLwarbirds Fold Win: 0.00 saja777 Fold Win: 0.00 BosanacBiH Fold Win: 0.00 Dedo68 Fold Win: 0.00 JMourinho1 Fold Win: 0.00 PLTelepee Fold Win: 0.00 PLdobbin Fold Win: 0.00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nade Posted May 24, 2008 Share Posted May 24, 2008 Re: Flop top pair (Q Kick) and Q high Flush draw - what's gameplan? Wow you run bad, chances of that hand are miniscule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted May 24, 2008 Share Posted May 24, 2008 Re: Flop top pair (Q Kick) and Q high Flush draw - what's gameplan? Glad I folded QJ preflop to be honest:ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulioArca Posted May 25, 2008 Share Posted May 25, 2008 Re: Flop top pair (Q Kick) and Q high Flush draw - what's gameplan? Wow you run bad' date=' chances of that hand are miniscule.[/quote'] I disagree, there was every chance that someone was holding KJ or K8. 5 limpers is a bad sign for that flop. GaF didnt know where he was at any point in the hand and would have been better off discarding it from the start. An aggressive raise on the turn representing the As may have saved a few chips on the river, but its a horrible hand to play from the start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulioArca Posted May 25, 2008 Share Posted May 25, 2008 Re: Flop top pair (Q Kick) and Q high Flush draw - what's gameplan? __________________ Poker makes idiots of men! I always thought that it was women ! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubermonkey1 Posted May 25, 2008 Share Posted May 25, 2008 Re: Flop top pair (Q Kick) and Q high Flush draw - what's gameplan? Wow you run bad' date=' chances of that hand are miniscule.[/quote'] the odds maybe small that someone has you pipped on both hands pre hand,but surely having 3 flat callers should be screaming that its likely they have ax ,2 sooted or 2 face cards which are all the things that could be beating you. add in the blinds who could also have the same sort of thing(or nothing)and i would say that its reasonably likely that you are beat at least one way and its not that weird to be beaten both ways. lucky the other guy didnt have as j as it could have got even nastier:loon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nade Posted May 25, 2008 Share Posted May 25, 2008 Re: Flop top pair (Q Kick) and Q high Flush draw - what's gameplan? I was being flippant TBH ;). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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