How do you get profitable at poker?

[DM99]

I hate to ask this but it's driving me nuts. The thought of making some cash from poker and not seeing it get whittled away in blinds and bad beats seems like a pretty good proposition for me! The problem is that I keep losing cash when I play NL. How do you manage to bridge the gap from losing cash to winning cash? Something is obviously wrong in the way that I play so I want to build my game from the ground up, starting from the very basics. From my limited skillset I have discovered some flaws in my play that cost me. The major one is I tend to be too passive, not calling or reraising so I tend to get bluffed out a lot and get my cash whittled away when maniacs and TAG make random large raises. Some books are good, some are bad. I especially hate it when they say to play certain hands from a position, and then they lead out with an example where they raise with junk. :sad Anyone who started from not knowing a thing about poker to where they can win cash fairly consistently knows the frustration I'm talking about when starting out.

[Nade]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker? You need to study the game a lot and play a lot. Then you need to combine the two - study your game and see where you're leaking money. General rules: - Play at levels you're comfortable with - Read about strategy (strategy forum here is a good place to start) - Play TAG - Then when you get a hand and hit it bet the life out of it, people will call you down with crap. - Don't be fancy, fancy play is for TV and high stakes games, it just doesn't work at low levels. - Be patient. - Be willing to improve.

[philossify]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker? Hi Dudeman, heres my view..... to a certain extent it depends how much money you hope to win and how many hours a day you are prepared to put in together with the (obvious) addendum that your skill level is better than the skill level of the opposition (plus a couple of percent for the house rake). If you are only aiming at a few thousand pounds per year then I'd argue that you should stay away from any NL cash tables over say $0.50/$1 (or even possibly any NL cash tables) as IMHO the NL cash game is very very competitive and IMHO the fish ratio is not as good as it once was (it's been overfished). If you are insistent that its NL cash then besides the things that Nade mentions then good money management is key and probably good record keeping on your opponents and tracking software will help. The alternative for making "pin money" (less than £5000 per year) is to play decent freerolls and value games and the PL daily list will point you at these. If you want (need?) to make a working wage at poker then you have to speculate (that's another word for risk) more, either via multitabling on relatively cheap NL cash games where an average skill level might suffice or (if you think you are hard enough :rollin) playing in higher value touneys and higher value cash games. But be warned, the world of poker is littered with the bodies of those who thought they had a good game and got shafted. Again money management is the key ... you have an amount to play with (hopefully some amount you can afford to lose, otherwise contact Gamblers Anonymous :lol), apportion it so you have enough samples to make a valid judgement of your real play capability (its amazing how many of us think we could be a contender), play it through ... if you lose it all then you are playing above your skill level and should move down to an easier game. Remember even people like Doyle Brunson have been massive losers at times ... and that many "professional" poker players have success for a time and then end up miserable, divorced, sad and broke. So keep it real and build your bankroll slowly - the game is so much easier if all you lose is little pieces of the money you've won. :cheers

[GaF]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker? My view is that making money at poker is easy, anyone can do it and it comes down to just 2 factors (and neither of them are poker ability) 1) Play at a level where you are playing against worse/less disciplined opponents than yourself - if you're losing money, you're almost certainly playing at too high a level. 2) Be disciplined - develop a good Tight Aggressive game and stick to it. It's not the most exciting form of poker - but it works - as you get better and evolve as a player you can bring in other aspects to your game. Test yourself at higher levels from time to time with your winnings, if it doesn't work, grind out some more profit at the lower level before taking a shot at a higher level again....

[voiceofjoe]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker?

My view is that making money at poker is easy, anyone can do it and it comes down to just 2 factors (and neither of them are poker ability) 1) Play at a level where you are playing against worse/less disciplined opponents than yourself - if you're losing money, you're almost certainly playing at too high a level. 2) Be disciplined - develop a good Tight Aggressive game and stick to it. It's not the most exciting form of poker - but it works - as you get better and evolve as a player you can bring in other aspects to your game. Test yourself at higher levels from time to time with your winnings, if it doesn't work, grind out some more profit at the lower level before taking a shot at a higher level again....

GAF - Did you finish the HOH Cash game books - and if so have you done a review anywhere ?

[GaF]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker? I haven't had the time to read any more since I last posted :$ (Part I!!!)

[wurzel133]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker? 1) Play at a level where you are playing against worse/less disciplined opponents than yourself - if you're losing money, you're almost certainly playing at too high a level. or to low a level where the real fish are

[GaF]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker?

or to low a level where the real fish are

Yes - this is where your opponents make the biggest errors and your TAG should be most profitable :ok

[DM99]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker? OK, thanks for the responses. Yes, it is shameful, I can't beat 0.25/0.50 NLHE. To help you fine folks to get a better idea of how best to help me out, all I am after is maybe an expectation of $100 - $200 per week in exchange for 20 odd hours of game time. Is that realistic and achievable? And, how true are the comments about the lower limits being overfished? I understand playing TAG, but doesn't that mean in many cases your bank will be eaten away by blinds? It can be a fairly long stretch between playable hands when the best strategy is to play only 20% of them. As I said before, I reckon my biggest problem is when the flop doesn't hit, and someone bets out. I have no idea whether to call or raise and in most cases I simply fold, even though I may hit bottom or middle pair on a high board. Sorry for the donk questions BTW!

[GaF]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker? I dont think setting targets will help you - especially if you're just starting out - I think you should always look to maximise what you're winning, but chasing will just cost you money.... Before you start looking for large profits - you need a good solid game that you can break even with - then you can go from there..... Remember (and I'm making these figures up, but dont imagine they're that far from the truth) - 70% of internet players lose. 20% are around break even, of the 10% that make a wothwhile profit, probably only half hit the kind of numbers you're talking about. So you need to be amongst the best 5% or so of online players to make that kind of money - you wont just get there - it will take a lot of time, experience, study, commitment, natural flair etc However, for the reservations offered - is it achievable? Most definitely and you wont need to play that high stakes to achieve it :ok Playing 20% of hands (at full ring) I would consider pretty loose (especially at the lower levels) - tight could even be lower than 10%, though I'm probably looking more at 12-13%.... A lot of the time, when you raise pre flop, you will be putting in a continuation bet post flop, whether you hit or not...... If you're playing tight, then when you do play you have AA, KK, QQ or AK - how do you hit bottom or middle pair? :unsure You play tight, you give your blinds away - they're pretty insignificant in cash because of the large inplied odds that you get from being deep stacked (100xBB or so) - if someone wants to steal your blinds - let them - you're out of position post flop - dont worry too much about defending blinds in Cash, if you want to defend something, you're better off defending your button (though would suggest you dont need to do that at the lower levels and until you're more experienced). It shouldn't be too unusual to fold 30 or 40 hands on the trot if you're playing proper TAG.... I seriously suspect you're not playing quite as tight as you think you are.... When you're more experienced and have proven yourself playing solid TAG, you can get more active by playing multiple tables simultaneously - though I would strongly suggest you're not ready for that yet (your improvement/development will slow when you're playing multi tables, because you will be less aware of what is going on... I haven't finished reading it yet, so cannot recommend it from personal reading, however suspect you would benefit greatly from reading the Harrington on Cash books :ok

[glceud]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker?

OK, thanks for the responses. Yes, it is shameful, I can't beat 0.25/0.50 NLHE. To help you fine folks to get a better idea of how best to help me out, all I am after is maybe an expectation of $100 - $200 per week in exchange for 20 odd hours of game time. Is that realistic and achievable?

Short answer is no. $200 a week, ever week in 20 odd hours is impossible at NL $0.25/$0.50 If you want to call it 1000 hrs a year for $10,000 then thats a start. Theres no weekly wage playing poker. Fixed limit you would need to be single tabling $4/$8 or 4 tabling $1/$2 and you might just about make it,thats if your a half decent player or about twice as good as me.

[Nade]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker? I've played tonnes of 25/50 full ring and it is easily beatable with a lot of patience. To make $200 in 20hrs at that level i think isn't achievable consistently. Say you play 4hrs a day for 5days a week you won't be playing enough to make back the inevitable times when you lose a buy-in or more to make $200 a week simply. Everyone at every single level loses buy-ins, it's just unavoidable in the main so you've got to put in man hours to over-ride this and make a bigger consistent profit. For what it's worth i'd say to make $200 playing at 50NL single tabling you should be looking to play over 30hrs a week. I also agree with 2 of Gafs points :loon - You're most likely playing looser then you think. Everyone does it. The main indication of this is you say you're playing 20% of hands i.e. 1/5 on a full ring table which is 2 hands every orbit and that is definitely too loose. It sounds totally nitty but to consistently win at that level play big hands and limp with value = money. And that mean as Gaf says sometimes folding 30/40 hands in a row. The likelyhood is the opposition at that level won't be paying too much attention and even if they are i guarantee you they think they can outplay you because they see you (the rock) as a fish who is scared. Instead you wait for these fools to get fancy and bend them over the table backwards.

[GaF]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker? Hmmm......I think I'm going to disagree with both of you - 6 tabling full ring is more than achievable if you are playing TAG - 20 hours will therefore be 120 table hours - $240 profit is $2 profit per table hour - that's 4 x BB per table per hour - say you're playing 50 hands an hour - that is a profit needed of 8xBB/100 - no chance in Limit, but achievable for some players on NL (and I'm not saying it's easy, just that its achievable)

[Nade]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker? I was obv working on notion of 1table nevermind 6 :loon If you add loads of tables then obv it becomes achievable to make the money within 20hrs play but i was merely working on the assumption they play 1 table at a time ...

[GaF]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker? For sure Nade :okFrom what I've heard so far, it would be a BIG mistake for Dudeman to play more than 1 table for quite a while - I was just trying to talk about what was achievable :ok

[glceud]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker? I said $4/$8 so thats just one and a quarter big bets an hour, that is achievable. Even more so 4 tabling $1/$2. Problem with TAG NL play is it leads to a lot of small profit sessions but occasional massive losing sessions. The profitable sessions minus the losses might lead to a $10 per hour profit overall, but if you have a heavy losing session you wont recover playing TAG within the 20 hr period.

[GaF]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker? Agreed - you cannot count on $200 per week - some weeks will be a loss, some weeks will be $1000 - poker has a lot of variance - it's a fact you have to live with - however averaging a $200 per week profit is achievable :ok

[DM99]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker? I feel that there may have been a little bad communication before. I meant to say that I cannot currently beat 0.25/0.50 consistently, but when I do, get some skill and am able to grind out a profit at these low levels then I will most def up my stakes and play at higher limit tables to get my profit expectation. I agree that averaging $10/hour from these microstakes would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, but easily doable with 1/2 or higher and multitabling. Right now I need to accumulate as many player points as possible from my deposit for the maximum amount of bonus cash in the next 20 days. It won't do me any good if my lose rate is faster than the rate which I get the freebie :eek Right now I am just after a set of "rules" that I can play by which will basically allow me to have a zero win/loss expectation but will get me into the bonus cash faster. As a general guideline for being TAG, it basically means playing the top 16 hands, raising them when I have them, and C-betting after the flop? Also staying away from aggressive players and betting a bit bigger against the more cautious players?

[gazabroad]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker? What are the top 16 hands? Maybe I´m playing this game all wrong!

[Nade]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker? Dudeman - uber TAG is top 10 hands raise pre flop... (Not sure on the next 6 :unsure) limp with pocket pairs TT and below hoping to hit a set. (Others will disagree but there's much more value in limping imo) Stay well out of the way of other rocks - there's no need/point getting involved in hands against players who only bet when they have a good hand too. If there's multiple limpers then limp if you're in late position with a looser range of hands.

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker? I cant believe people are throwing around 20 hours this and 20 hours that and no one has asked whether the guy has rakeback? Im only playing 0.05/0.1 atm and id guess (no offense intended or brag) that i have more knowledge of the game, move down... IF you cant handle playing for 'pittence' then dont play because you arent going to beat a level where a fair few people are better than you. I dont agree that 0.25/0.5 is 'easily beatable' playing complete TAG. I also dont agree with the premise that 'fancy stuff doesnt work at lower limits', it has been working for me at 0.05/0.1 on betfair and that is about as fishy as it gets online. Question to you dudeman: Where do you play and have you got rakeback?

[Nade]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker? Being fancy may work for an advanced player but for a novice there's just no need to get fancy at the lower levels as TAG pwns it all over especially at 25./50. been there done that for more hours then i care to remember.

[MartyMcG_1967]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker? My advice would be the same as others on this thread, you need to play at a stake level you are comfortable at and where you think you are better than your opponents. My regular game is a £3.60 single table tournament on William Hill, while it varies from game to game I've found I'm generally better than the level of player there. The main difference I find is that if i get a decent hand pre-flop and raise, say for example AK and i raise to 4 times the BB and hit an A or K, i will tend to get called down by hands like kj or worse by players who have no respect for raises. I'm tight aggressive so would be very wary of playing such hands when someone has raised pre-flop and would be more inclined to throw it away. I've made a good profit from these games, and my total profit now stands at over $300, all over a long period of time so its not a massive amount or an amount that will mean i can quit my part time job or enjoy a lavish lifestyle ;) but it means i can play for fun and make small amounts and have a go at mtt's. SharkScope - The Largest Online Poker Tournament Results Database is a good way of recording your profit/loss. Regarding money management, I'm not sure when i should move up to the next level of stt which is £5.50 on WH, I've played it before but found myself getting very annoyed as I think on the 3/4 occasions I've played this I have bubbled every time and generally dont feel as comfortable as I'm aware of the higher prize for 1st place. My balance at the moment is just over £50, which would give me around 10 stt's should I lose them all, would this be a sensible balance from which to experiment at a higher level? Any advice much appreciated and hang in there dude man, its all about experience and learning from it, I read Dan Harrington's first book on Texas Holdem NL tournaments and adapted my game from stuff in that book although its important not to take everything to heart as people have said some things that work at a higher level won't work at a lower level. Finally i tend to play stt's as I find with cash games on one hand I could lose my whole bankroll if say I hit a nut flush and ran into a fh and I'd rather know in advance how much I was going to lose should i not cash in a tournament.

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker?

Being fancy may work for an advanced player but for a novice there's just no need to get fancy at the lower levels as TAG pwns it all over especially at 25./50. been there done that for more hours then i care to remember.

I suppose, i think it probably depends a lot on where he plays. Im pretty sure to beat .25/.50 on full tilt you will need to pull some fancy stuff now and again just to show the regulars you are capable of it... First task to making a steady profit though imo - get rakeback

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker?

Finally i tend to play stt's as I find with cash games on one hand I could lose my whole bankroll if say I hit a nut flush and ran into a fh and I'd rather know in advance how much I was going to lose should i not cash in a tournament.

thats why you dont put your entire bankroll on a table. Second task to become profitable, make sure you are rolled for your level, say around 20 buyins if you are comfortable i suppose.

[MartyMcG_1967]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker?

thats why you dont put your entire bankroll on a table. Second task to become profitable, make sure you are rolled for your level, say around 20 buyins if you are comfortable i suppose.

Yeah your right I just tend not to play them as I prefer and do better in tournament play. What are the best sites for rakeback and lower rakes? Noticed pokertrillion give back 30% when you want it, i'm comfortable and profitable on WH but the rake is terrible and its probably something i should look at.

[ubermonkey1]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker? i usually go for around a 20-25 buy in limit for stts:ok never really played much on will hill ,but in general you should not really see much improvement in play till you get up to at least $10 games .even then the standard doesn't raise that much till you get to the $40-$50 levels. i would recommend keeping to a decent bankroll limit and not a 10x buy in ,if you do that it will likely effect your game(you already mentioned not being comfortable).that said you have made $300 profit so if you had kept that in there then you could be moving up:ok out of interest how long is a long period of time?it sounds to me like you have prepared well and have shown good patience :clap:clap a few of the qoutes in your post seem to suggest that the prize money is affecting your game which as everyone has said is a bad thing.i would recommend trying to completely forget the amount your playing for and set yourself the same targets in every stt:ok as long as you have the correct bankroll to play a game then give it a go but look at it as the same as every other stt,DONT THINK OF THE MONEY. my usual stt starting target is get to the last 3 with at least 20%of the big stack,if i accomplish that then go for the win.i never think about winning it till that point.you can never win a game with 7 people left, 6 need to go first;) getting your bankroll up is tricky at the lower levels and you've done well to record a profit , its very similar to my and most of the other players beginnings in poker. although it is a bit of a grind:eyes it is getting you experiance and making you a bit of cash as well. keep it up and have confidence in your game ,as long as you keep playing well theres no reason why you can't make some decent money at it:ok

[stooo V2]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker?

My advice would be the same as others on this thread, you need to play at a stake level you are comfortable at and where you think you are better than your opponents. My regular game is a £3.60 single table tournament on William Hill, while it varies from game to game I've found I'm generally better than the level of player there. The main difference I find is that if i get a decent hand pre-flop and raise, say for example AK and i raise to 4 times the BB and hit an A or K, i will tend to get called down by hands like kj or worse by players who have no respect for raises. I'm tight aggressive so would be very wary of playing such hands when someone has raised pre-flop and would be more inclined to throw it away. I've made a good profit from these games, and my total profit now stands at over $300, all over a long period of time so its not a massive amount or an amount that will mean i can quit my part time job or enjoy a lavish lifestyle ;) but it means i can play for fun and make small amounts and have a go at mtt's. SharkScope - The Largest Online Poker Tournament Results Database is a good way of recording your profit/loss. Regarding money management, I'm not sure when i should move up to the next level of stt which is £5.50 on WH, I've played it before but found myself getting very annoyed as I think on the 3/4 occasions I've played this I have bubbled every time and generally dont feel as comfortable as I'm aware of the higher prize for 1st place. My balance at the moment is just over £50, which would give me around 10 stt's should I lose them all, would this be a sensible balance from which to experiment at a higher level? Any advice much appreciated and hang in there dude man, its all about experience and learning from it, I read Dan Harrington's first book on Texas Holdem NL tournaments and adapted my game from stuff in that book although its important not to take everything to heart as people have said some things that work at a higher level won't work at a lower level. Finally i tend to play stt's as I find with cash games on one hand I could lose my whole bankroll if say I hit a nut flush and ran into a fh and I'd rather know in advance how much I was going to lose should i not cash in a tournament.

Welcome to my world!!!! except i play on betfair... $5 level and i seem to win this consistently. Build my bankroll from a starting point of about $20 upto about $120.... this will usually take me 5/6 hours of play thru a day but then i'm stuck in a situation where i think shall i move up? I do it and end up bubbling a lot. I'll be honest and say that I'm not a TAG I'm most prob loose agressive tryin to steal lots of little pots so that when I take a gamble or actually do get a big hand i can afford to lose it if you get me. End up getting frustrated and blowing the large majority of it at a higher level and then all the hard work i have put in is undone.

[MartyMcG_1967]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker?

i usually go for around a 20-25 buy in limit for stts:ok never really played much on will hill ,but in general you should not really see much improvement in play till you get up to at least $10 games .even then the standard doesn't raise that much till you get to the $40-$50 levels. i would recommend keeping to a decent bankroll limit and not a 10x buy in ,if you do that it will likely effect your game(you already mentioned not being comfortable).that said you have made $300 profit so if you had kept that in there then you could be moving up:ok out of interest how long is a long period of time?it sounds to me like you have prepared well and have shown good patience :clap:clap a few of the qoutes in your post seem to suggest that the prize money is affecting your game which as everyone has said is a bad thing.i would recommend trying to completely forget the amount your playing for and set yourself the same targets in every stt:ok as long as you have the correct bankroll to play a game then give it a go but look at it as the same as every other stt,DONT THINK OF THE MONEY. my usual stt starting target is get to the last 3 with at least 20%of the big stack,if i accomplish that then go for the win.i never think about winning it till that point.you can never win a game with 7 people left, 6 need to go first;) getting your bankroll up is tricky at the lower levels and you've done well to record a profit , its very similar to my and most of the other players beginnings in poker. although it is a bit of a grind:eyes it is getting you experiance and making you a bit of cash as well. keep it up and have confidence in your game ,as long as you keep playing well theres no reason why you can't make some decent money at it:ok

As a student money can be tight so thats why I have withdrawn in the past rather than tried to use profits to gain more profit but my bankroll just now wouldn't affect me if I lost it. My profit is $348 after 831 stt's so thats over about 2 years probably, life in the slow lane :lol I know what your saying regarding the prize money but it is human nature after all but yeah my decision making is probably hindered when playing at higher stakes but thats something I can work on with experience. I agree with you regarding strategy, as long as I make the top three thats a success but then you get greedy and I'm normally confident of winning if i make the top three and my stack isn't tiny. Just when i thought i had mastered the WH 3.60 stt's they have amended the format, you now start with 1500 chips as opposed to 1000 ( think most sites have 1500 as your starting stack), might benefit looser players so I might have to modify my game a bit.

[GaF]

Re: How do you get profitable at poker? Deeper stacks would benefit good loose players. (higher implied odds). TAGS may benefit against poorer (loose) players because it gives them more time to sit and wait for a big hand.....