Chip passing

[rosco]

on the final table on friday night with 5 player left, about 235,000 chips in play. anyway action puts 60k in the pot, player in the bb says I have 3k left and says you want to put it in now? the other player sat with 60k says no we will see flop. flop comes A 5 2. bb bets 3k and the other player folds. I look at the dealer and say thats close to chip passing, he says yeah very close, it goes quiet. the guys says yeah I knew he had an ace, later I found out he folded pocket kings. nothing happened about this, what would anyone else do?

[Valiant23]

Re: Chip passing If it was live I'd ask for the manager. Internet I'd report it. :ok

[GaF]

Re: Chip passing It wasnt any form of Team event? If not, definitely report it and hope the poker room investigate it properly....

[rosco]

Re: Chip passing it was a normal live event the guy who runs the card room was dealing and there was another member of staff there too the guy that folded ended up winning with a huge arrogance.

[Valiant23]

Re: Chip passing I don't think I'd leave it there. What he did was 'save the last bet' as its termed in Barrys and its not allowed. If it was in a casino I'd be making a complaint to the Casino Manager. If it wasn't then I wouldn't play there again.

[glceud]

Re: Chip passing Cheating plain and simple.

[goater14]

Re: Chip passing Blatant cheating.

[dik9]

Re: Chip passing Errrrrrm........ I think i am going to be slightly controversial here :) This is a hard one to call for a TD, are you saying there was 60k in the pot? And he folded to a 3k bet whilst having enormous odds to call? Speech is borderline, fold is borderline but no rules have actually been broken. If he passed the absolute nuts, action can be taken, as it happens with an ace on the flop (if he was holding KK) he was behind. Although very bad play, you cannot penalise someone for folding what they think is a losing hand. Although it is very pheasable to call it chip dumping, this particular play doesn't constitute a warning/action. In the situation like this the TD should be looking at cards to make sure the folder didn't have nuts btw nb "Saving the last bet" is actually only a cash game breach as it cannot be done in comps, and is slightly different

[AJ]

Re: Chip passing

Errrrrrm........ I think i am going to be slightly controversial here :) This is a hard one to call for a TD, are you saying there was 60k in the pot? And he folded to a 3k bet whilst having enormous odds to call? Speech is borderline, fold is borderline but no rules have actually been broken. If he passed the absolute nuts, action can be taken, as it happens with an ace on the flop (if he was holding KK) he was behind. Although very bad play, you cannot penalise someone for folding what they think is a losing hand. Although it is very pheasable to call it chip dumping, this particular play doesn't constitute a warning/action. In the situation like this the TD should be looking at cards to make sure the folder didn't have nuts btw nb "Saving the last bet" is actually only a cash game breach as it cannot be done in comps, and is slightly different

I'm going to agree, the player with 60k is under no obligation to raise further preflop. He's entitled to call / check and take a flop, regardless of how little the other guy has. The Ace on the flop entitles the big stack with KK to fold with a clear mind. There is no rule that can force someone to call a bet when they reasonably consider themselves behind. I've look at Roberts Rules for this, and can find no rule broken. Would those who are so strident in suggesting blantent cheating like to explain what rule they consider has been broken ??

[dico]

Re: Chip passing Hmmm not sure if it's cheating:unsure It's very bad play but a similiar thing was happening in the laddies PL game and I wouldn't have accused anyone of cheating.

[slapdash]

Re: Chip passing

I've look at Roberts Rules for this, and can find no rule broken. Would those who are so strident in suggesting blantent cheating like to explain what rule they consider has been broken ??

Collusion/soft-playing. Do we know for sure that the player was guilty of this? No, of course not, but unless a player admits it, we never would. It's perfectly legal for a player to make mind-bogglingly lunatic decisions so long as they're not motivated by trying to advantage another player. In any case of suspected collusion, all you can do is judge on the basis of the facts and previous history: you can never be 100% sure. Does this look suspicious? Yes, very. Even if he "knows" that the other guy has an ace, the enormous pot odds make this an easy call unless it's AA or AK. I don't know what the general standards are in situations like this for the level of evidence required to take action. It seems reasonable that a single incident like this would not merit action (people do very stupid things without malice sometimes), but it also seems reasonable to report incidents like this in case these two players have a history of soft-playing each other or do so in the future.

[Valiant23]

Re: Chip passing If Rich says its not cheating then I guess it isn't. But.

anyway action puts 60k in the pot, player in the bb says I have 3k left and says you want to put it in now? the other player sat with 60k says no we will see flop. flop comes A 5 2.

3 handed and one player has KK? I don't know of any player on this earth who would say 'lets see a flop' in that situation. :unsure I'm assuming this from Rich's post, but I guess that the dealer has the right to look at mucked hands if he suspects something fishy going on? What if Ross objects? Does the dealer have to look at the mucked hands to make sure nothing fishy has gone on? What if the guy who claimed to have KK actually had an Ace? :unsure

[Valiant23]

Re: Chip passing Just to add.... I've played loads of games against PLers and the following scenario has occurred. I've had a decent hand and there has been other aggressors in the pot, one of them a PLer. The aggression has driven out the non PLer and the flop (or turn) brings down an Ace. Now both players (both PLers) are scared by this card and decide that they don't fancy their hands quite so much and so betting slows down (sometimes ending in a check-fest). I guess this could look like soft-playing to others. :unsure

[AJ]

Re: Chip passing

If Rich says its not cheating then I guess it isn't. But. 3 handed and one player has KK? I don't know of any player on this earth who would say 'lets see a flop' in that situation. :unsure I'm assuming this from Rich's post, but I guess that the dealer has the right to look at mucked hands if he suspects something fishy going on? What if Ross objects? Does the dealer have to look at the mucked hands to make sure nothing fishy has gone on? What if the guy who claimed to have KK actually had an Ace? :unsure

Because exposing a losing hand gives information to an opponent, players may be reluctant to expose their hands until after their opponents have done so and will muck their losing hands without exposing them. Robert's Rules of Poker state that the last player to take aggressive action by a bet or raise is the first to show the hand, otherwise the first player to the left of the dealer button is the first to show the hand. If there is a side pot, players involved in the side pot should show their hands before anyone who is all-in for only the main pot. To speed up the game, a player holding a probable winner is encouraged to show the hand without delay. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that is eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the hand has been mucked. This option is generally only used when a player suspects collusion or some other sort of cheating by other players. When the privilege is abused by a player (i.e. the player does not suspect cheating, but asks to see the cards just to get insight on another player's style or betting patterns), he may be warned by the dealer, or even removed from the table. ^[1]

So even if you fold preflop, you have an absolute right to view all the players cards at the showdowwn. Even if someone mucks their hand at the showdown, you have a right to see their cards. Ask the dealer, they will not refuse. It's pretty bad ettiquite though

[slapdash]

Re: Chip passing

So even if you fold preflop' date=' you have an absolute right to view all the players cards at the showdowwn. Even if someone mucks their hand at the showdown, you have a right to see their cards. Ask the dealer, they will not refuse.[/quote'] I don't think that applies here, though. Because the player folded to the 3k bet on the flop, there wasn't any showdown.

[glceud]

Re: Chip passing

I've look at Roberts Rules for this, and can find no rule broken. Would those who are so strident in suggesting blantent cheating like to explain what rule they consider has been broken ??

All forms of gambling have a multitude of unwritten rules all to do with honurable behaviour. Too many people out there look at poker, Horse racing, greyhounds etc as a oppurtunity to "scam" others and there is as far as I can see no other possible explanation for the play here. With regards to the original question "what would I do?" I would never play at the card room again. I would name the card room here. I would name the players here too. Protect the rest of the poker community from cheats like this.

[AJ]

Re: Chip passing

I don't think that applies here, though. Because the player folded to the 3k bet on the flop, there wasn't any showdown.

I know, but in this case I think you could raise the issue with the TD, who would examine the players cards and make a decision on collusion. I recall a story related to this a while back, when a player folded Quad Queens on the turn against his brother in law who was all in at a bubble situation. He claimed he thought he was behind to a straight flush. The turn gave him quads, but put a third running diamond on the board. Another player complained, the TD investigated and gave the guy with quads a penalty

[dik9]

Re: Chip passing I need to go to bed, but will respond to all questions if I have time before work this afternoon. It would be nice to know ALL the details from the OP first i.e. how big were the blinds, how did the pot get to 60k? What action there was to get to 60k, i presume there must have been action if only 235k on table with 5 left, who made the actions and why the BB had an oportunity to raise 3k, and whom would you like to punish? The guy who didn't bet his 3k pre or the guy who didn't call post or both?

[rosco]

Re: Chip passing To answer a few questions It was the Grovenor Riverside in Manchester, to anyone who does not know of it, its a bit of a rough casino. blinds were 2k 4k I think raised to 10k in first position, everyone folds to BB who re-raised all in (pot limit) its called, once counted the bb had 3k left thats when he was asked only 3k all left all in. the guy in bb had the 3k to push in his hands ready to drop when the flop came, which he did, the other guy immidiately folded. I was astounded and looking at the dealer, effectively the card room manager. No-one else said anything and I was a bit shocked. Once I said something the cards had been collected. I really dont see the advantage of the fold unless he had 6 10 or a rubbish hand like that and didnt want to show what he was raising with. as we had finished the came came upto me and said I play alot of heads up online so I am really good at it. (by the way he was very lucky everytime we were all in I was going in ahead, the second to last time was my aj against his a8) to which I replied not very good are you. He was very arrogant, all the way through, the girl next to me really didnt like him.

[dik9]

Re: Chip passing Right, thanks for giving slightly more information Rosco, the fact it is pot limit explains a few things that concerned me. So action had finished for that round and the BB was basically saying after reraising the pot that he wants to put remainder 3k in, which is normal as he hasn't got a BB left ......expecting the other player to instantly call as it is unlikely he would fold for such a little amount. "player in the bb says I have 3k left and says you want to put it in now?" So the BB wants to get his money in and is prepared for a showdown, indicating strength. Cannot penalise him for doing anything wrong here. The other person in the pot says "no we will see flop" Which he is fully entitled to do but indicates weakness and doesn't want his hand revealed, I very much doubt he had KK but lets just say that is what he had. The Ace on the flop probably puts KK behind, despite massive odds to call. There is no way I can penalise him for folding here!! I would probably mock his play in the staffroom for a few weeks though. Look at it another way for those that think it is dumping to keep a mate in etc. "blinds were 2k 4k I think raised to 10k in first position, everyone folds to BB who re-raised all in (pot limit) its called, once counted the bb had 3k left thats when he was asked only 3k all left all in." 265k in play average is 53k If BB wins he gets 2k(sb) + 4k(bb) + 10k(utg) + 28(bb) + utg call of 22k= 66k pot and the other player will be left with 60k ish. If this extra 3k went in it would take the BB up to 72k if he won and UTG down to 57k. As there were 5 players left in (presumably paid top 5?) 2 players just above average is -EV against a cash out and a chip lead (that if the BB was to dump the other way around eg to UTG he would have a massive chip lead and be favourite to win) that had a great chance of winning! This would be a stupid dump and a fairly stupid play by UTG (but it may have it's merits strangly enough), as far as I can see :eyes

glceud

Quote: Originally Posted by AJ I've look at Roberts Rules for this, and can find no rule broken. Would those who are so strident in suggesting blantent cheating like to explain what rule they consider has been broken ?? All forms of gambling have a multitude of unwritten rules all to do with honurable behaviour. Too many people out there look at poker, Horse racing, greyhounds etc as a oppurtunity to "scam" others and there is as far as I can see no other possible explanation for the play here. With regards to the original question "what would I do?" I would never play at the card room again. I would name the card room here. I would name the players here too. Protect the rest of the poker community from cheats like this.

I am completely impartial to this situation, and non-punishment would happen in any cardroom I ruled this in, I would hope you felt happy with this ruling, but disappointed that you would never play in a cardroom I run (because you would either think me incompetant, incapable or a cheat)

[dik9]

Re: Chip passing Onto the subject of showdown rules :dude Roberts Rules state that any player involved in a hand has a right to see anyones cards at showdown, this means anyone dealt in can ask to see. IMHO this is Bollox for a few reasons 1) It causes bad feeling 2) Slows down the game 3) Gives free information to everyone about what cards people play 4) Leading on from 3) stops poker actually being played, no one would want to bluff 5) The only reason why any player is requesting would by rights be, that collusion was taking place 6) Leading on from 5) It is easier to dump without going to showdown if people were colluding Caro and Cookes Rules which are my preferred rules, states that only the person that called the agressors bet can request to be shown, even then it is still seen as bad etiquette. I will explain this further in bit. The rules we are using at DTD state that NO ONE can request to see any cards at showdown, and here are the reasons why, We use TDA rules which are the most worldwide used rules. The TDA rules do not mention who can request to see, it is purely a showdown in order. The last aggressive action must show first, therefore if someone calls a bet, they should wait until the aggressor has shown, the caller should never have his hand exposed unless they wish to do so. It is also etiquette to immediately turn your cards over if you believe you have the winning hand. So if the caller has a very strong hand, but wishes to see the bettors cards, he should wait until the bettor has shown in order. But if the caller shows first he forfeits the right to see the bettors hand. Hence being bad etiquette if a caller shows first and then wants to see the other players. I am actually warming to DTD's rules on this, although some people will say, what about if you suspect collusion. The dealers should be experienced enough to know when this is happening and will call for the floor OR if the dealer isn't call for the floor yourself if you suspect anything!

[dik9]

Re: Chip passing

I'm assuming this from Rich's post, but I guess that the dealer has the right to look at mucked hands if he suspects something fishy going on? What if Ross objects? Does the dealer have to look at the mucked hands to make sure nothing fishy has gone on? YES What if the guy who claimed to have KK actually had an Ace? Unless he had the nuts, in this case AA no direct action can take place. If holding an Ace, I may have a quiet word, and keep a very close eye on :unsure

Hope thats cleared everything up as to what is behind my thinking, although in each scenario a decent TD will gather as much info as possible, and make the fairest desicion they can come up with, sometimes it differs from TD to TD as no 2 situations are ever the same and nearly never completely black and white :moon

[dik9]

Re: Chip passing

I know, but in this case I think you could raise the issue with the TD, who would examine the players cards and make a decision on collusion. I recall a story related to this a while back, when a player folded Quad Queens on the turn against his brother in law who was all in at a bubble situation. He claimed he thought he was behind to a straight flush. The turn gave him quads, but put a third running diamond on the board. Another player complained, the TD investigated and gave the guy with quads a penalty

I remember this, and the controversy at the time was that quad queens wasn't actually the Nuts, however the odds of quads actually losing in this case were so astronomical, that the TD ,rightly so, decided to penalize. EDIT, If I recall, he was penalized for not betting on the river as last to act, not for folding, which is even more controversial :)

[glceud]

Re: Chip passing Facinating, you need to refer to a rule book to answer an ethical question. Hope your up to date with the bible for the rest of your every day life

[GaF]

Re: Chip passing Surely you have to refer to the rulebook when you want an independant person to make a decision :unsure they have to make a judgement based on the rules, not ethics..... By definition, ethics are voluntary arent they? Rules are binding. If someone breaks ethics, nothing you can do. If someone breaks rules, you ask for a ruling.... Would you trust poker players to act ethically without rules to back them up? I wouldn't!

[dik9]

Re: Chip passing

Facinating, you need to refer to a rule book to answer an ethical question. Hope your up to date with the bible for the rest of your every day life

WTF?? I gave 3 examples of different rule books to answer a showdown question. As for the original question, and going on ethics. I used common sense, and rather than assuming UTG was guilty, I have explained my thinking and my actions. I would hope any decision in a cardroom I make, would at it's simpleist be fair. For the record, I am not religious in any way since the age of 14 ;), but my conscience doesn't need 10 stone tablets to tell me what is right or wrong. My Common Sense assists me greatly! (In your analogy, I live by the rules that govern this country, and hopefully would be pressumed innocent until proven guilty, as anyone who wants a FAIR trial should expect!) I also would rather find facts rather than simply assume someone was cheating. I may suspect someone is cheating, and would keep a very close eye on, but I am afraid I couldn't acuse anyone of it unless I was reasonably positive that they did. For the record, I have a reputation for being one of the fairest TD's and running the straightest of games. I must have seen nearly every stroke possible in 20 years of running poker, and I would have no hesitation of disqualifying and barring anyone who I catch abusing the game. I ran/run an illegal cash game and compared to most casinos cardrooms is far far far more secure. The players that know me also know this and are very happy that they are playing in a straight game. My friends know that if they are in a pot with an "out of towner" there will be no bias to anyone. My reputation means everything and you challenging my ethics is simply an insult. By all means challenge a ruling I make, I can explain them all, and as long as i can justify it in my own head, I will stick with that decision, and I am not so narrow minded that I won't listen to anyone elses reasons or thinking and change my mind. I have given an explanation as to why I wouldn't penalize, so please give me your interpretation as to why you would punish, (I would actually like this as it makes me think more)

[glceud]

Re: Chip passing Woops, Ive done it again. Sorry wasnt meant to come across like that. Reply later, off out.

[slapdash]

Re: Chip passing

Surely you have to refer to the rulebook when you want an independant person to make a decision :unsure they have to make a judgement based on the rules, not ethics..... By definition, ethics are voluntary arent they? Rules are binding. If someone breaks ethics, nothing you can do. If someone breaks rules, you ask for a ruling....

I don't think this is really a matter of rules vs ethics. If anybody did anything wrong, then it was collusion or softplaying, which are both against the rules and unethical. (In fact, they're unethical because they're against the rules: it would be quite possible to have a game where the rules allowed collusion, in which case there would be nothing unethical about doing it, although I don't think it would be nearly as a good a game as poker.) I doubt very much that anybody commenting here disagrees about any relevant ethical principle. I imagine that everybody would agree that if the guy who folded did it because it benefited the other player, but knew that it was a bad play, then he was being unethical, but if he did it because he thought, however wrongly, that it was the right play, then that's not in any way unethical? The question seems to me to be purely one about how suspicious an action has to be before it's right to penalize it. I don't think dik9 was saying that the player definitely did nothing wrong (none of us know for sure what the player's motives were); he was saying that in his opinion this incident didn't constitute enough evidence to take action.

[glceud]

Re: Chip passing Apologies, my comments were not meant to be a slur on any one bar the two players involved. The only two possible explantions for the utg player not pushing preflop or calling post flop are extremely bad play or having an interest in the raisers tourney life. As the first is impossible to prove and we dont have potographic evidence of them splitting their winnings later theres not a lot we can do. Now as far as I'm concerned collusion should be punishable by immediate exclusion Its wrong because you are attempting to defraud a fellow human being, not becuse its against the rules. You would exclude a player for violence but the rules probably dont need to mention that If he didnt want his cards seen he should have folded to the initial reraise. If he had a hand he could call with he should have pushed.