glceud Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Dont think I'm imagining this but I think a few players are using the following strategy I've playing 0.50/1.00 full ring tables for the past couple of months, about 20,000 hands, and noticed a few players buying in for $20. The majority buy in for the max at this level. Basically the short stacks wait for a hand were there has been a standard raise and one or two callers and then push their $20 all in. If your the initial raiser what do you need to call with, taking into account the non existence of implied odds plus the fact that you will be out of position if the other caller/s remain in the pot? So the short stack has in my eyes a great chance of taking the pot uncontested simpy because he is a short stack and more often than not does, and even if one other player calls he's not getting bad odds with any 2 cards. He's also increasing his chances of getting paid out when he does have a hand preflop. Any one on here do this or am I imaging it. I certainly wouldnt do it too often if I had bought in for the max. Had pocket aces today when down to $25 and had an early position raiser with 4 callers so I shoved, the initial raiser goes "nice squeeze play" and calls as did the other 4 and I got humped by 4/5 suited.:sad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Re: Min buy in Strategy Dont think I'm imagining this but I think a few players are using the following strategy Basically the short stacks wait for a hand were there has been a standard raise and one or two callers and then push their $20 all in. If your the initial raiser what do you need to call with, taking into account the non existence of implied odds plus the fact that you will be out of position if the other caller/s remain in the pot? Yes its a great strategy if you are uncomfortable with post flop play. what to call with - JJ/1010+ would be my guess, a lot of shoves will be A9+ KQ and maybe if they are pretty short 66+, KJ, A6+, which means their range is failry big. However you have hit the nail on the head, you make it $4 get 2 callers and shortie shoves for $15, if you only call there is now about $40 in the middle with the blinds and its only $11 more for someone else to call - so calling is not an option really, you should raise to force them to fold/create a side pot. I found that short stack shoving never worked on a full table for me simply because of what you described with AA - the min buy strategy works better on short tables when you have less players and are less likely to be called by more than one of them. Cheers Damo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glceud Posted February 19, 2008 Author Share Posted February 19, 2008 Re: Min buy in Strategy I found that short stack shoving never worked on a full table for me simply because of what you described with AA - the min buy strategy works better on short tables when you have less players and are less likely to be called by more than one of them. Cheers Damo Funny I thought it would work better on full tables with more chance of you getting the action you want to "squeeze". I am of course assuming you dont want callers. It seems any pkt pair and any 2 broad way cards will do for the "shortie". I've called a couple when everyone else is out so I have position with pkt 8's, A/q and 10/10 and and been beat by K/10, pkt 3's and pkt aces repectively. Half the time I'm quite happy when shortie doubles up and leaves! Think with my AA every one thought I was on tilt as I had just lost $75 to a runner runner flush previous hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Re: Min buy in Strategy I think you'll find a lot of shorties are playing premium hands only big pairs AK and maybe AQ from late position, alot limp wait for a reraise and then shove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glceud Posted February 19, 2008 Author Share Posted February 19, 2008 Re: Min buy in Strategy I think you'll find a lot of shorties are playing premium hands only big pairs AK and maybe AQ from late position' date=' alot limp wait for a reraise and then shove.[/quote'] No the range is far wider than that with the ones I've pinpointed. This seems to be a predesigned plan to buy in for just enough to have fold equity but not enough to feel the pain when it goes pairshaped Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveO Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Re: Min buy in Strategy Yes of course there are the ones that are afraid to play with a full buyin but I've noticed on Prima many players multitabling with a 20% stack and employ the strategy I stated above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Re: Min buy in Strategy No the range is far wider than that with the ones I am with Steve on this - the whole point of the min-buy-in and shove strategy it to wait for 'premium cards' AA KK QQ AK AQ - otherwise you are just gambling shoving 33 etc, in which case you might as well shove 10 8. I am not saying folks don't do it, I am saying that in regards to the 'accepted' strategy, folks are leaving themselves wide open to get busted by deviating so far from it. I might shove JJ, 1010, 99, AJ and A10 if I am getting really short, otherwise it is stick to the hands as described. It works as long as the others are not paying too much attention and works best IMHO on short handed tables where you are more likely to get HU, which is want you want with this strategy, you don't want multiple callers shoving AQ. Just my thoughts Damo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glceud Posted February 19, 2008 Author Share Posted February 19, 2008 Re: Min buy in Strategy OK was just thought, Think I might deposit a $100 somewere and see what happens- just for research purposes of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Re: Min buy in Strategy I'm with glceud on this - I'm playing looser with a small stack - i dont have reverse implied odds, so I can move in with far more marginal hands. You can also look to pick up the pots that noone else seems to want - for example shoving liberally from late position when noones raised.... If you sit there and wait for premium hands, then you want a deep stack - because you want to play a big pot - you cannot if you have no chips.... One of the dennis mags printed an article a while back on playing with a short stack - at the time generated a lot of discussion and input on here (the author of the article even signed up and joined in) - at the time I agreed with it, but from what I recall now I've changed my mind - my thinking around short stacks has totally changed since reading the maths behind Sklansky-Chubukov........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Re: Min buy in Strategy I'm with glceud on this - I'm playing looser with a small stack - i dont have reverse implied odds, so I can move in with far more marginal hands. You can also look to pick up the pots that noone else seems to want - for example shoving liberally from late position when noones raised.... Shoving marginal hands is the road to ruin - people will call you, so shoving K10 is not a good idea as you often get at least 2 callers, dependant on how short your stack is, and the action before it gets to you - more action if there is a raise and calls in front, less so (generally) if you are first in from LP. Re shoving from LP if no one raises - are you talking limps in front of you? if so, then folks will call - they 'have' to after limping, they feel 'obliged' to call:eyes. So best shove something that you are likely to be ahead of their range with. I would not advise open shoving something crap like J9 if its folded to you in the CO as one of the blinds will call as they have money 'invested' in the pot......:eyes At low stakes people calling ranges are large, very large in some cases, so you want to be at least a 60/40 fav against one opponent and holding AA KK & AK against raise and calls in front of you (generally) if you are going to shove (QQ is borderline shove to a raise and 3 calls). I played around with the short-stack-shove strategy on Betfair 6 tables and you do need patience and you do need to be ultra-selective IMHO as from personal experience people call with crap. How it works at $1/2 I don't know as I was playing micro-stakes. Just my thoughts from personal experience. Cheers Damian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Re: Min buy in Strategy If you sit there and wait for premium hands, then you want a deep stack - because you want to play a big pot - you cannot if you have no chips.... The idea of the SSS is to double up and leave, locking in your profit and opening up another table - some folks prefer to play 'proper' poker after doubling up, but I can't see the point really. Having a deep stack is not what you are interested in with this strategy, deep stacks encourages players to call normal raises with marginal hands hoping to hit because of implied odds, so mid-suited connectors, small PP's, they are likely to fold those against a shortie shove because their implied odds are diminished. SSS is about getting HU PF, not deep stack clever play post flop. Damo ps I haven't read the S/C ranking you mentioned - is there a link you could post? thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Re: Min buy in Strategy Shoving marginal hands is the road to ruin - people will call you' date=' so shoving K10 is not a good idea as you often get at least 2 callers, dependant on how short your stack is, and the action before it gets to you - more action if there is a raise and calls in front, less so (generally) if you are first in from LP.[/quote'] If you have KTs in the SB, and everyone folds to you, then shoving IS profitable, with complete and absolute 100% certainty with a stack size anything up to 31xBB - even if you show your cards to your opponents, there is nothing he can do to stop you having positive ev (and therefore being profitable) - the reality is that keeping your cards secret and your opponents propensity to make errors (i.e. not minimise his losses) will give you even greater positive ev...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Re: Min buy in Strategy ps I haven't read the S/C ranking you mentioned - is there a link you could post? thanks The only time I've ever seen it online is when I posted it - Sklansky-Chubukov Rankings (I never finished developing it as I intended :$) The print version is in "No Limit HoldEm: Theory and Practice" by Sklansky and Miller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Re: Min buy in Strategy One of the dennis mags printed an article a while back on playing with a short stack - at the time generated a lot of discussion and input on here (the author of the article even signed up and joined in) - at the time I agreed with it, but from what I recall now I've changed my mind - my thinking around short stacks has totally changed since reading the maths behind Sklansky-Chubukov........ Here it is - Testing Alex Scotts Short Stacked Cash Table Strategy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glceud Posted February 19, 2008 Author Share Posted February 19, 2008 Re: Min buy in Strategy One of the dennis mags printed an article a while back on playing with a short stack - at the time generated a lot of discussion and input on here (the author of the article even signed up and joined in) - at the time I agreed with it, but from what I recall now I've changed my mind - my thinking around short stacks has totally changed since reading the maths behind Sklansky-Chubukov........ I really should read my poker mags:$ Dont know how I mssed the thread unless it was when I was away in the summer. You could sit and wait at micros and get callers with big hands but it will never work in medium sakes games. People just wont call unless they are sure they are a strong fav. Do it at micros and everyone with a pair or an ace will call, which is why its a waste of time making squeeze plays or bluffing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen1000 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen1000 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Re: Min buy in Strategy It works for full ring only not 6 max. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillHicks Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 Re: Min buy in Strategy I think the rake has an effect on this strategy at the buy in around 20$ . I think the rake is often bigger than the edge the maths predict to the pusher. But then this can also apply to the caller so you get a sort of game of chicken situation, where if both players play what would be the optimal strategy without rake they Both end up losing with rake. (if a 20 $ allin is called you have about a 40$ pot -typically 2$ rake- and youare fighting over blinds of 1.50 or 3 bucks) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
step1 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Re: Min buy in Strategy a variation http://www.bullsbetting.com/Articles/Titan01.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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