w.t.f. what did i do wrong??

[teaulc]

Hand T4-55412021-244, Started at 12/6/2007 10:08 PM (GMT+0) Table 'Panchiao': 2,000-2,000 No Limit HE (TournamentChips) Seat 0: teaulcsg (18,948 in chips) Seat 1: NFLDREBEL (18,716 in chips) Seat 2: denahay1 (13,220 in chips) (on the button) Seat 3: crislima13 (16,104 in chips) Seat 4: Sammakko113 (25,525 in chips) Seat 5: Kostek1917 (11,780 in chips) Seat 6: Breakerbg (87,404 in chips) Seat 8: -Harlequeen- (14,214 in chips) Seat 9: Fuller696 (34,811 in chips) *** Blind Bet Round *** : crislima13 : Post Blind (1,000) Sammakko113 : Post Blind (2,000) Dealt to teaulcsg: Jc Dealt to teaulcsg: Kh *** Pre-Flop *** : Dealt to teaulcsg: Jc Dealt to teaulcsg: Kh Dealt to Sammakko113: 8h Dealt to Sammakko113: Js Kostek1917 : Fold Breakerbg : Call (2,000) -Harlequeen- : Fold Fuller696 : Fold teaulcsg : Bet (6,000) NFLDREBEL : Fold denahay1 : Fold crislima13 : Fold Sammakko113 : Raise (23,525) Sammakko113 : All In (25,525) Breakerbg : Fold teaulcsg : Call (12,948) teaulcsg : All In (18,948) *** Flop *** : 7d 2h Ad *** Turn *** : [ 7d 2h Ad ] 2s *** River *** : [ 7d 2h Ad 2s ] 8d Dealt to teaulcsg: Jc Dealt to teaulcsg: Kh Dealt to Sammakko113: 8h Dealt to Sammakko113: Js Sammakko113 : Show Cards teaulcsg : Show Cards *** SUMMARY *** Pot: 47,473 | Rake: 0 Board: [ 7d 2h Ad 2s 8d ] teaulcsg lost 18,948 Shows [ Jc Kh ] (a pair of twos) NFLDREBEL lost 0 denahay1 lost 0 crislima13 lost 1,000 Sammakko113 bet 25,525, collected 47,473, net 21,948 Shows [ 8h Js ] (two pairs, eights and twos) Kostek1917 lost 0 Breakerbg lost 2,000 -Harlequeen- lost 0 Fuller696 lost 0

[GaF]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong??

w.t.f. what did i do wrong??

Apart from calling for your tournament with KJo? :loon :tongue2 If you dont have enough chips to get away from the hand if reraised all in, then I prefer to go all in first and maximise my fold equity.... that way my opponent knows he cannot push me off of the hand.... But turning it around a bit, why do you think you've done something wrong? As it happens I don't like (assuming no other knowledge of your opponent)the way you played it - but just because you lost a hand, doesn't in any way indicate that you did anything wrong - poker isn't "results orientated" - what happens in one hand, doesn't in any way reflect what the right decision was... To be honest - I much prefer his play to your play - he was the aggressor (reraising), you were the one calling all in - I'd much rather shove with weak hands, than call all in with mediocre hands.....

[teaulc]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong?? i know where your coming from,,but j8 to me is unplayable no matter what,,i have raised preflop and yes i committed myself to an all in,which the way the cards have been tonight was good to do...i just dont understand the re-raise all in with j8,,he was putting his tourney life on the line as well,,my play on the table is rock like and if i had lost to what i call a good hand,i have no problem..but ,oh i dont know,,why do that with j8????

[SteveO]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong?? I totally agree with you Gaf, the call to an all in is absolutely dreadful, I would definitely have folded that hand preflop in that position it would have been far better fo you to push preflop than call the allin.

[glceud]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong?? 10 big blinds left pokers out the window now its all in or fold time. Only part of poker I still enjoy

[GaF]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong??

' date='but j8 to me is unplayable no matter what[/quote'] I'll shove with 32o in the right circumstances :ok As M falls, then cards become less important (eventually to the point where they are totally insignificant) and situations are the more significant factor.... M isn't desperate yet in your game, but it's not exactly deep stacked either...... Have you seen the kind of hands The Mole is playing (and winning) with? And that's in a deep stacked cash situation.....

[robilaruk]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong?? you didn't fold to the re-raise Damo

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong??

why do that with j8????

if you know he was wrong to do what he did why the hell are you posting this like some hand history where you want advice, all you want is for someone to get their hanky out for u. suck it up, its happened to everyone.

[glceud]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong??

i just dont understand the re-raise all in with j8' date=',he was putting his tourney life on the line as well,,my play on the table is rock like and if i had lost to what i call a good hand,i have no problem..but ,oh i dont know,,why do that with j8????[/quote'] Best person to reraise --the table rock;)

[teaulc]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong??

I'll shove with 32o in the right circumstances :ok As M falls, then cards become less important (eventually to the point where they are totally insignificant) and situations are the more significant factor.... M isn't desperate yet in your game, but it's not exactly deep stacked either...... Have you seen the kind of hands The Mole is playing (and winning) with? And that's in a deep stacked cash situation.....

yeah ok,,after 2 years i am still learning and still playing most of the time abc poker,contary to what most of you think,which is probably my weakness,,which is why i am asking questions,feedback is taken on board but to play like the muppets we moan about is hard to do

[teaulc]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong??

if you know he was wrong to do what he did why the hell are you posting this like some hand history where you want advice' date=' all you want is for someone to get their hanky out for u. suck it up, its happened to everyone.[/quote'] your wrong totally mate,,i dont post hh very often but when i do i want to learn from it,,

[GaF]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong??

but to play like the muppets we moan about is hard to do

We're not - the muppets do it when they're deep stacked.... The most important skill, IMO for MTTs is the ability to move through the gears - to know where you are in the tourney and be playing appropriately to the circumastances..... Short stack play requires a very different approach to deep stack play - MTT's are constantly moving your position within those extremes - you need to play according to your situation....

[teaulc]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong??

We're not - the muppets do it when they're deep stacked.... The most important skill, IMO for MTTs is the ability to move through the gears - to know where you are in the tourney and be playing appropriately to the circumastances..... Short stack play requires a very different approach to deep stack play - MTT's are constantly moving your position within those extremes - you need to play according to your situation....

i have found that,,,i get a really good start in tourneys and then tighten up too much when it matters,,is my bug bear atm and that is why i posted this,,i need to find my weaknesses as well as my strengths,, i am not after sympathy,,i am after good advice :ok:ok

[GaF]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong??

if you know he was wrong to do what he did why the hell are you posting this like some hand history where you want advice' date=' all you want is for someone to get their hanky out for u. suck it up, its happened to everyone.[/quote'] teaulc and I have been talking about this by PM a little as well - it's not a bad beat - he does want to hear others opinions and learn from it. Can we try and keep posts constuctive please?

[AJ]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong?? What did you do wrong ? Well Poker Stove has you as a 74% / 26% favourite, so you got the money in when you were ahead, it's clearly a vastly +EV play. That's all any of us can do, after that it's in the hands of the gods. At some point you're going to have to take a chance, you can't ask for much more than a 74 /26 chance. Having said that, I'm not playing KJo in that situation, stack sizes are getting smaller relevant to blinds. You need to commit a third of your stack with a hand that is just so open to domination. Would I have called the re-reaise ? I'm not sure. You're not quite pot committed, but you're close. In fact, thinking some more; What did you do wrong ? You should have pushed preflop. Your raise to 3xBB looks like a blatent steal raise to nick the blinds, he probably figures you'll fold to his reraise. If you're going to make a stand, push all-in preflop, chances are he'll fold.

[voiceofjoe]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong?? Sorry, Al - But honestly I think you should re-name the thread w.t.f did I do right ? You haven't told us much about the lead up to this and how near, or not you are away from the bubble. I think your being very unfair on the guy callin him a muppet. You've had the biggest stack on the table limp in before you - thats fair enough he can afford to, then you put in a nonsense raise of 6k ? Your not going to force the Big Stack off the hand even if the BB folded ? The 5k in the pot would have added about another 30% to your stack so push here if you think the Big Stacks limp is weakness. The BB has done exactly what you should have done - if you had gotten a rock like image then that would have added even more creedence to the push.

[glceud]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong??

i have found that' date=',,i get a really good start in tourneys and then tighten up too much when it matters,,is my bug bear atm and that is why i posted this,,i need to find my weaknesses as well as my strengths,[/quote'] I've said that about you before you do get on the leader board early a lot! Any chance of you playing the first 2 hours of a tourney then I'll take over and play the fun bit because I'm good at that.

[whycantistayawayfromdogs]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong??

teaulc and I have been talking about this by PM a little as well - it's not a bad beat - he does want to hear others opinions and learn from it. Can we try and keep posts constuctive please?

its not a bad beat?

[teaulc]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong??

Sorry, Al - But honestly I think you should re-name the thread w.t.f did I do right ? You haven't told us much about the lead up to this and how near, or not you are away from the bubble. I think your being very unfair on the guy callin him a muppet. You've had the biggest stack on the table limp in before you - thats fair enough he can afford to, then you put in a nonsense raise of 6k ? Your not going to force the Big Stack off the hand even if the BB folded ? The 5k in the pot would have added about another 30% to your stack so push here if you think the Big Stacks limp is weakness. The BB has done exactly what you should have done - if you had gotten a rock like image then that would have added even more creedence to the push.

cheers martyn,,understand what your saying and the others,,it was the wrong play at the wrong time,,early on in the tourney plays like this worked fine,,i am in the money but below average stack so was looking for a call i suppose to see the flop,,i knew his all in re raise was his attempt to push me off the hand and that is why i called,,if i had won it,i would be in an excellent position,,i have to admit that mansion is not my fave site and am trying to play through the software.. i am always looking to win the tourney but still have the tendency to play myself out of it,and that is what i am trying to fix...

[Tom Hedonist]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong??

i have found that,,,i get a really good start in tourneys and then tighten up too much when it matters,,is my bug bear atm and that is why i posted this,,i need to find my weaknesses as well as my strengths,, i am not after sympathy,,i am after good advice :ok:ok

I used to play whole tournies like a rock, but I changed my style a bit recently and have benefitted greatly from it. In the last month I've won three (plus two more with very small fields). I've come 2nd twice and made another couple of final tables, plus a couple of small cashes. (I know this sounds like a lot, but at times I've been playing 3+ tournies a day). I still play TAG until until the first break, by which time I'm hoping to have doubled up. After the first break I try and pick my spots to be aggressive with position. I've been amazed at how well I've done with this small change to my game :cow Re the hand you've posted. As others have said, your position isn't good enough and your stack is too small to be playing KJo. I'm guessing your opponent was trying to push you off your hand. TBH I'd have folded to the all-in. In the end you got unlucky. :sad

[The Quiet Man]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong?? I don't normally comment on these sort of threads because no matter how it gets dressed up it still comes across as a Bad Beat Thread. :wall I think it's clear by the comments that you now know that you've played the hand wrong so I'll leave that alone! One thing I think you need to work on is the anger that comes out of you when something like this happens - I can sense the steam coming out of your ears as you type on the keyboard.:@:wall:@:wall You have to get immune to this sort of stuff - IT HAPPENS TO EVERYONE ALL THE TIME!! The person you remind me of is Nade when he first joined the forum - all he did was post angry rants against the person that knocked him out. :cry He did well to learn from that in 2 or 3 months and is a far better player for it now - he may well kick the cat/dog/wife when he gets beat but his posts now suggest that he takes it in his stride! :ok The next time it happens tell yourself you were favourite when the money went in - you can't control what the next 5 cards are going to bring! Good luck in the future! :ok TQM

[Valiant23]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong?? what did you do wrong? The raise to 6k. :ok Why? Okay, you're short stacked. Now you get to high cards which is okay because as glceud puts it, you're playing the fun bit now (all in or fold). Now what is important to me, after seeing I've got 2 high cards is, can I shove and pick up the blinds? The answer is in all likelihood no, because if the big stack has A rag he may think it worth 10k to knock you out. We know you're in mid position and get around 4 or 5 more hands before paying the BB and SB, so the next questions are (a) When do the blinds go up and (b) Is there any benefit in allowing yourself to be blinded out? So if the situation as a whole isn't looking favourable then you should have pushed and left it in the lap of the gods, expecting a call from the big stack but the only time as a short stack you should raise 3 x BB is when you've got a monster pocket pair.

[BAM]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong??

Can we try and keep posts constuctive please?

I'll try ;) (but it is hard with posts like this) VoJ pretty much said what I was thinking but Alan a couple of points are kneedling me. 1) I think you have been playing for a couple of years now and if you are still playing ABC poker then you are not progressing, your game should be moving forward on a weekly basis the amount you play. 2) If you seriously think that the re-raise with J8 was muppet play then you have a lot to learn. I'm not sure how much you have said is serious or just a post beat rant, so apologies if I have the above two points wrong. As TQM said you do seem to take beats (this is not a bad one) personally. You should take the positives out of the beat, log it and make sure you don't repeat the experience :ok

[SteveO]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong?? This reminds of when my mate played in a casino in Cardiff at the weekend. He had a massive chipstack and when he was reraising people all in they were calling with hands like AQ AJ A10 even KQ and getting busted and calling him a donk. They all risked their tournament with marginal hands and duly got busted.

[teaulc]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong?? thanks for all your comments guys,,all is noted and one reason i posted it,, looking at it now,i can appreciate the initial raise by me was wrong,and maybe the old brain cells were dulled by the rum :) at the time.. i still think he was wrong to put his tourney life on the line with j/8 and i didnt get through nearly 1700 players by not noticing a re-steal.. i do admit though i wasnt in the best of moods last night,it has been a very bad week at work,and in hindsight maybe i shouldnt have posted straight after the game

[GaF]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong?? I suggested to Al last night that a read of Harrington on Holdem Vol II would probably be a good idea - Just to add to that, an understanding of the concepts behind Sklansky-Chubukov Rankings would probably be worthwhile too (I read it in "No Limit Holdem Thory and Practice" by Sklansky and Miller) .....

[BAM]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong??

i still think he was wrong to put his tourney life on the line with j/8 and i didnt get through nearly 1700 players by not noticing a re-steal.. i

OMG!!!:wall:wall:wall:wall you are obviously not listening

I suggested to Al last night that a read of Harrington on Holdem Vol II

I would recomend for him to read that but not to play like harrington but to recognise how most players do play and to counter act that. The best poker book I have read in a long while is The Full Tilt Poker Strategy Guide (Warner Books:2007) Each section is written by a FT pro giving their advice. There is a great chapter by Andy Bloch on play before the flop and another on leverage by the Howard Lederer. There are also sections on stud games, omaha and limit texas. Well worth the £10 :ok I also read other players blogs my favourite at the moment is Andy Wards http://secretsoftheamateurs.blogspot.com/. The trouble is with all this reading I have no time to play poker anymore but at the moment I am spending a lot of time in hotel rooms so some good literature is ideal.

[Tom Hedonist]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong??

The best poker book I have read in a long while is The Full Tilt Poker Strategy Guide (Warner Books:2007) Each section is written by a FT pro giving their advice. There is a great chapter by Andy Bloch on play before the flop and another on leverage by the Howard Lederer. There are also sections on stud games' date=' omaha and limit texas. Well worth the £10 :ok[/quote'] Many thanks for mentioning that. I'll have a look for it. Will look forward to the Omaha section. Have heard that most of the Omaha books are very poor. I was disapointed with Harrington Vol.1, as I found it did nothing more than cover the basics, which I'd read many times before elsewhere. Thought Vol.2 was very interesting though, definitely well worth the money.

[BAM]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong??

Many thanks for mentioning that. I'll have a look for it. Will look forward to the Omaha section. Have heard that most of the Omaha books are very poor. I was disapointed with Harrington Vol.1, as I found it did nothing more than cover the basics, which I'd read many times before elsewhere. Thought Vol.2 was very interesting though, definitely well worth the money.

No probs :ok The Omaha Hi Lo chapter is by Mike Matasow :eyes but it is not bad The Pot Limit Omaha is by Chris Ferguson and it is very good

[glceud]

Re: w.t.f. what did i do wrong??

thanks for all your comments guys,,all is noted and one reason i posted it,, looking at it now,i can appreciate the initial raise by me was wrong,and maybe the old brain cells were dulled by the rum :) at the time.. i still think he was wrong to put his tourney life on the line with j/8 and i didnt get through nearly 1700 players by not noticing a re-steal.. i do admit though i wasnt in the best of moods last night,it has been a very bad week at work,and in hindsight maybe i shouldnt have posted straight after the game

He was pretty sure you would fold. Are you seriousley claiming that you have never put your tourney life on the line preflop in the hope your opp's will fold.