GaF Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 I know I played this badly - so interested what others would have done.... First hand in tonights Paradise Euroliga. So I have no specific information. Players are pretty bad in this - my base assumption is that there are bad players who will call it down when they shouldn't - how do I best benefit from their bad play? BTW, this is NOT a bad beat thread - I do not lose a showdown.... ***** Hand 840494016 ***** 10.00/20.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 24 November 2007 20:30:02 Paradise EuroLiga (Real /Tournament ) Seat 1: ValeDown (2000.00) Seat 2: RTXpoker (2000.00) Seat 3: cineasta (2000.00) Seat 4: sompirasti (2000.00) Seat 5: el_lejia2 (2000.00) Seat 6: rveraca (2000.00) Seat 7: Griff505 (2000.00) Seat 8: jolly67 (2000.00) Seat 9: cripoker (2000.00) Seat 10: RIONILO (2000.00) RTXpoker post SB 10.00 cineasta post BB 20.00 ** Deal ** ValeDown [Jd, Jh] RTXpoker [N/A, N/A] cineasta [N/A, N/A] sompirasti [N/A, N/A] el_lejia2 [N/A, N/A] rveraca [N/A, N/A] Griff505 [N/A, N/A] jolly67 [N/A, N/A] cripoker [N/A, N/A] RIONILO [N/A, N/A] *** Bet Round 1 *** sompirasti Fold el_lejia2 Call 20.00 rveraca Fold Griff505 Fold jolly67 Fold cripoker Call 20.00 RIONILO Fold You have the button - 2 limpers to you, deep stacks (everyone has 100x BB) - what do you do with your JJ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Quiet Man Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 Re: How would you play this? I'd raise to 100 :ok Nothing higher than a 10 on the flop - I'd bet the pot but would also think about shoving in a tourney with over 300 entrants - expecting the clown with A3 to call. (and probably hit):lol Of course if you hit the Jack on the flop it's a different ball game! TQM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Intensity Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 Re: How would you play this? Raise to 80, see what happens:unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted November 24, 2007 Author Share Posted November 24, 2007 Re: How would you play this? Forgive me if I probe a little.... What's the purpose of the raise? Narrow the field? Build a pot? Take it down? etc.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Quiet Man Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 Re: How would you play this? Forgive me if I probe a little.... What's the purpose of the raise? Narrow the field? Build a pot? Take it down? etc.... The purpose of the raise is that you've got the best hand at the moment and should bet to gather evidence of the hands you're up against - dead simple! I've limped in many times before with JJ early on - any QKA on th flop and it's an instant fold to any bet! TQM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted November 24, 2007 Author Share Posted November 24, 2007 Re: How would you play this? Ok - getting information :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Intensity Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 Re: How would you play this? Forgive me if I probe a little.... What's the purpose of the raise? Narrow the field? Build a pot? Take it down? etc.... Because raising is brilliannttttt:loon. If you don't raise you're in a pot with probably 4 people unless one of the blinds raise - in which case I'd re-raise. I suppose on the button is a bit better to limp because you're got position for the rest of the hand, but here you've only got JJ. You want to be in a position where you think you're ahead on most T high (or lower) flops - against 4 hands it's a bit dodgy especially if there's a flush draw there. Also, by trying to thin the field pre-flop, you have the initiative on the flop especially if it has a Q,K,A. Also better chance of taking it down on a dodgy flop against 1 or 2 instead of 4 opponents. With the blonds so low it's good to raise the flop, which in turn, raises the bets post-flop which is great if you do hit another J. Calling sucks;). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nade Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 Re: How would you play this? I'd raise at least 60 - probably 80 for information and represent strength if an A or K comes an opponent will most likely believe you. It's funny as i had JJ on the first hand too, but UTG+1 and limped, a few others limped and BB rose over 400 so know im ahead i push they have AQ and i win the race. Just shows it's good to vary the play with premium hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhornet Posted November 24, 2007 Share Posted November 24, 2007 Re: How would you play this? Raise to 100. One or more will call you. Continuation bet on the flop whatever happens, then lose. Happens to me all the time!!:loon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shuby1982 Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 Re: How would you play this? id prolly just limp with them, hope to hit trips or better! first hand not too keen to play as chances of getting stung to poor calls i find to be a high risk just sit back and take time to build the stack, after all your not going to win the game on the first hand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubermonkey1 Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 Re: How would you play this? raise to 80-100 for me ,try and cut down the opposition and also hopefully get info on the opponents that do call or raise.then throw in a continuation bet on the flop as long as there arent multiple callers+overcards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilywoods Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Re: How would you play this? Definite raise probably to 70 for me, want to knock out those with dodgy combinations that could hit 2 pair on an innocent looking board. After all you will be betting if the flop comes favourably and hopefully only against 1 opponent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted November 28, 2007 Author Share Posted November 28, 2007 Re: How would you play this? :welcome to PL wilwoods :ok Forgot to come back to this thread...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted November 28, 2007 Author Share Posted November 28, 2007 Re: How would you play this? Historically, I mostly play my big hands, with low blinds, from early position in a game where I consider the opposition poor, pretty passively. At this level, if I raise between 3x and 5x BB, how much information do I really get on my opponents hands? Even against better opponents, the implied odds allow for some creativity and flexibility in their play. I'm not convinced by either the "thinning the field" or "getting information" arguments - because my opponents dont hear the message I'm sending.... When an overcard or two come on the flop (which they probably will), I dont think I can really have much idea where I am. I want people in the pot - I dont want to take it down, and win 30 chips, but I dont know how to find out where I am post flop.....So I tend to flat call, treating it totally as a drawing hand - hit a Jack, or 3 unconnected undercards and play it hard, otherwise fold. However I'm tending now to think that this cannot be right at all - so what could be a good reason for raising? I think it is to start building a pot - if I hit my trips, it's a lot easier to get a lot of money in - it's still a drawing hand for me - but I want to increase my chances of stacking someone.... Remember - this is Euroliga - standard is VERY poor - so I'm also conscious, out of position of wanting to control the pot size throughout... What do you do now? (given that you made the mistake of calling and not raising) ***** Hand 840494016 ***** 10.00/20.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 24 November 2007 20:30:02 Paradise EuroLiga (Real /Tournament ) Seat 1: ValeDown (2000.00) Seat 2: RTXpoker (2000.00) Seat 3: cineasta (2000.00) Seat 4: sompirasti (2000.00) Seat 5: el_lejia2 (2000.00) Seat 6: rveraca (2000.00) Seat 7: Griff505 (2000.00) Seat 8: jolly67 (2000.00) Seat 9: cripoker (2000.00) Seat 10: RIONILO (2000.00) RTXpoker post SB 10.00 cineasta post BB 20.00 ** Deal ** ValeDown [Jd, Jh] RTXpoker [N/A, N/A] cineasta [N/A, N/A] sompirasti [N/A, N/A] el_lejia2 [N/A, N/A] rveraca [N/A, N/A] Griff505 [N/A, N/A] jolly67 [N/A, N/A] cripoker [N/A, N/A] RIONILO [N/A, N/A] *** Bet Round 1 *** sompirasti Fold el_lejia2 Call 20.00 rveraca Fold Griff505 Fold jolly67 Fold cripoker Call 20.00 RIONILO Fold ValeDown Call 20.00 RTXpoker Call 20.00 cineasta Raise to 120.00 el_lejia2 Fold cripoker Call 120.00 ValeDown ???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daftpegasus Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Re: How would you play this? The pot is 300 and you need to put in 100 so you're getting 3-1 for your money. You have position. Against anything other than AA,KK,QQ you're a favourite to win at the current time. Therefore you have to call. The big question is the action of RTX who still has to make a decision this round. However a limp from the SB in early position means that they're most likely to either fold or call. A 6xBB raise from the BB when facing a number of limpers is not necessarily a sign of great strenght, so I wouldn't see that as a sign that he has a monster hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shuby1982 Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Re: How would you play this? for me im calling for another 100 chips, a kind flop and your prolly getting paid, if the flop is not kind to you its an easy fold! not much lost! 120 is easily won back in a poor standard torni. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Re: How would you play this? I'm reraising here, making it 300 to go, he he reraises me again, given the poor standard of the game, I push. Unless he leads out post flop with a massive bet I'm betting 2/3 to 3/4 of the pot on the flop. JJ is a very strong hand, I'd guess you're miles ahead and he's vastly over valuing something like AQo out of position. He could have 99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted November 30, 2007 Author Share Posted November 30, 2007 Re: How would you play this? Ok - this is a pretty unremarkable hand when we get down to it, it's just one I feel I played badly.... The concensus so far seems to be raising and reraising - something I've been trying to do in these tournaments, when out of position, with vulnerable hands, against, what I consider poor players is to control the pot size - as soon as I start raising and reraising, then it will quickly escape from me... is this a bit of a bogus objective that will just get me into trouble? (and turn me into a calling station?) In the event I call. What now? ***** Hand 840494016 ***** 10.00/20.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 24 November 2007 20:30:02 Paradise EuroLiga (Real /Tournament ) Seat 1: ValeDown (2000.00) Seat 2: RTXpoker (2000.00) Seat 3: cineasta (2000.00) Seat 4: sompirasti (2000.00) Seat 5: el_lejia2 (2000.00) Seat 6: rveraca (2000.00) Seat 7: Griff505 (2000.00) Seat 8: jolly67 (2000.00) Seat 9: cripoker (2000.00) Seat 10: RIONILO (2000.00) RTXpoker post SB 10.00 cineasta post BB 20.00 ** Deal ** ValeDown [Jd, Jh] RTXpoker [N/A, N/A] cineasta [N/A, N/A] sompirasti [N/A, N/A] el_lejia2 [N/A, N/A] rveraca [N/A, N/A] Griff505 [N/A, N/A] jolly67 [N/A, N/A] cripoker [N/A, N/A] RIONILO [N/A, N/A] *** Bet Round 1 *** sompirasti Fold el_lejia2 Call 20.00 rveraca Fold Griff505 Fold jolly67 Fold cripoker Call 20.00 RIONILO Fold ValeDown Call 20.00 RTXpoker Call 20.00 cineasta Raise to 120.00 el_lejia2 Fold cripoker Call 120.00 ValeDown Call 120.00 RTXpoker Call 120.00 *** Flop(Board): *** : [3c, 5h, 2s] *** Bet Round 2 *** RTXpoker Check cineasta Bet 140.00 cripoker Call 140.00 ValeDown.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Re: How would you play this? they've both played Ace rag and have a gutshot straight draw, reraise hard hard hard!!!! No cheap cards. Make it 500 to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaded Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Re: How would you play this? Think I agree with AJ here all the way - which probably has him worried! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted November 30, 2007 Author Share Posted November 30, 2007 Re: How would you play this? It has me worried - I wanted to hear what Jaded thought of controlling the pot size :loon :tongue2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubermonkey1 Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Re: How would you play this? hmmmm:unsureall sorts of problems here. problem number 1 is cineasta . he may have an overpair but without a reraise you can't tell really .he could be just continuation betting but i think a raise here is very dangerous because you will need to push a lot of your stack in to make any effect . this is why i would have raised pre flop ,most players will reraise with a monster in this situation with limpers and a raiser in front so your raise may induce a reraise and at least pre flop it will only cost 80-100 if you do need to fold. so i think it does help give you information about other players hands even if it only shows up monster hands. one interesting point is that i would say that a fish is more likely to push more with a high pp than a more experianced player who is looking for value out of it,so although its tricky to read callers a big reraise says pp to me:ok problem number 2 is the 2 callers. as you said this game is a bit fishy you could put those 2 on pretty much anything bar a monster pp (would expect a reraise pre flop if they had). either could have trips or a4 if they are any ace merchants;) so both could have you well beat:unsureand could be slow playing. i dont see the point of calling ,if your not ahead now its not likely to get much better with 2 outs:eyes so it either a raise or fold:unsure and i just edge towards a raise up to 450, any reraise i fold ,any callers i will see what the turn brings:eek. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted November 30, 2007 Author Share Posted November 30, 2007 Re: How would you play this? I wont drag it out too much..... I figure I'm almost certainly ahead now but still scared of overcards - so I bet big, overbet, wanting to take it down..... but they both call - my dreaded overcard comes - they both check - what now? ***** Hand 840494016 ***** 10.00/20.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 24 November 2007 20:30:02 Paradise EuroLiga (Real /Tournament ) Seat 1: ValeDown (2000.00) Seat 2: RTXpoker (2000.00) Seat 3: cineasta (2000.00) Seat 4: sompirasti (2000.00) Seat 5: el_lejia2 (2000.00) Seat 6: rveraca (2000.00) Seat 7: Griff505 (2000.00) Seat 8: jolly67 (2000.00) Seat 9: cripoker (2000.00) Seat 10: RIONILO (2000.00) RTXpoker post SB 10.00 cineasta post BB 20.00 ** Deal ** ValeDown [Jd, Jh] RTXpoker [N/A, N/A] cineasta [N/A, N/A] sompirasti [N/A, N/A] el_lejia2 [N/A, N/A] rveraca [N/A, N/A] Griff505 [N/A, N/A] jolly67 [N/A, N/A] cripoker [N/A, N/A] RIONILO [N/A, N/A] *** Bet Round 1 *** sompirasti Fold el_lejia2 Call 20.00 rveraca Fold Griff505 Fold jolly67 Fold cripoker Call 20.00 RIONILO Fold ValeDown Call 20.00 RTXpoker Call 20.00 cineasta Raise to 120.00 el_lejia2 Fold cripoker Call 120.00 ValeDown Call 120.00 RTXpoker Call 120.00 *** Flop(Board): *** : [3c, 5h, 2s] *** Bet Round 2 *** RTXpoker Check cineasta Bet 140.00 cripoker Call 140.00 ValeDown Raise to 700.00 RTXpoker Fold cineasta Call 700.00 cripoker Call 700.00 *** Turn(Board): *** : [3c, 5h, 2s, Ks] *** Bet Round 3 *** cineasta Check cripoker Check ValeDown ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Re: How would you play this? you've made RTXPoker fold..... Do you think the K has helped any of these guys ? I don't, I think they're as scared of the King as you are. push all in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaded Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Re: How would you play this? It has me worried - I wanted to hear what Jaded thought of controlling the pot size :loon :tongue2 I think it's a bloody stupid idea. :rollin This might be why I lose big pots so often, though... for me, it has to be reraise if you're looking strong, and I agree with AJ again that the K hasn't helped them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhornet Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 Re: How would you play this? I'm in agreement here with AJ and Jaded, I think the King helped no-one. I'd push all-in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 1, 2007 Author Share Posted December 1, 2007 Re: How would you play this? Well my balls just aint that big guys!!! I'd pretty much given up at this point - 2 opponents, I just couldn't believe I had them both beat..... ***** Hand 840494016 ***** 10.00/20.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 24 November 2007 20:30:02 Paradise EuroLiga (Real /Tournament ) Seat 1: ValeDown (2000.00) Seat 2: RTXpoker (2000.00) Seat 3: cineasta (2000.00) Seat 4: sompirasti (2000.00) Seat 5: el_lejia2 (2000.00) Seat 6: rveraca (2000.00) Seat 7: Griff505 (2000.00) Seat 8: jolly67 (2000.00) Seat 9: cripoker (2000.00) Seat 10: RIONILO (2000.00) RTXpoker post SB 10.00 cineasta post BB 20.00 ** Deal ** ValeDown [Jd, Jh] RTXpoker [N/A, N/A] cineasta [N/A, N/A] sompirasti [N/A, N/A] el_lejia2 [N/A, N/A] rveraca [N/A, N/A] Griff505 [N/A, N/A] jolly67 [N/A, N/A] cripoker [N/A, N/A] RIONILO [N/A, N/A] *** Bet Round 1 *** sompirasti Fold el_lejia2 Call 20.00 rveraca Fold Griff505 Fold jolly67 Fold cripoker Call 20.00 RIONILO Fold ValeDown Call 20.00 RTXpoker Call 20.00 cineasta Raise to 120.00 el_lejia2 Fold cripoker Call 120.00 ValeDown Call 120.00 RTXpoker Call 120.00 *** Flop(Board): *** : [3c, 5h, 2s] *** Bet Round 2 *** RTXpoker Check cineasta Bet 140.00 cripoker Call 140.00 ValeDown Raise to 700.00 RTXpoker Fold cineasta Call 700.00 cripoker Call 700.00 *** Turn(Board): *** : [3c, 5h, 2s, Ks] *** Bet Round 3 *** cineasta Check cripoker Check ValeDown Check *** River(Board): *** : [3c, 5h, 2s, Ks, 10h] *** Bet Round 4 *** cineasta All-in 1180.00 cripoker Fold ValeDown .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McG Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 Re: How would you play this? JJ UTG 1st Hand, high implied odds, low standard game Now it gets really tricky, and I guess we now see the real reason why you started this thread. Under most circumstances, I'd fold. Lots of hands to beat you, and you're out if you get it wrong. However, the Euroliga strikes me as one of those tourneys where people will be more likely to bluff on the river with a missed draw. If either of the other two really did have a King, I'd have expected them to re-raise you on the turn, rather than give a free card to the others. Therefore, gulping hard, I'd press the "call" button. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhornet Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 Re: How would you play this? JJ UTG 1st Hand, high implied odds, low standard game I still think you have the best hand, so I'm calling. As McG says, the Euroliga attracts some very loose and poor players, and they are more than capable of firing on a missed draw on the first hand of the tournament. Some of them appear to be under the impression that if they are not sitting on 10K at the first break, they are not going to cash. In almost any other tournament, I'd fold, but not in this tourney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 1, 2007 Author Share Posted December 1, 2007 Re: How would you play this? JJ UTG 1st Hand, high implied odds, low standard game Now it gets really tricky' date=' and I guess we now see the real reason why you started this thread.[/quote'] No surprisingly it's not - the part I was really interested in was the views on the earlier part - I was looking for reasons/justifications to change the way I'm playing it, because I think I'm not doing it too well at the moment - I'm struggling with the conflict between "controlling pot size" (i.e. small balling against poor opponents I believe I should be able to outplay) and playing aggresively... I'm surprised how many (erm...everyone so far) would risk their tournament calling with an underpair to the board against 2/3 opponents..... at this stage, for me, it's an easy lay down (a tough position I got into because I played the earlier parts of he hand so poorly).. Afraid we never know what the guy who shoved had :sad ***** Hand 840494016 ***** 10.00/20.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 24 November 2007 20:30:02 Paradise EuroLiga (Real /Tournament ) Seat 1: ValeDown (2000.00) Seat 2: RTXpoker (2000.00) Seat 3: cineasta (2000.00) Seat 4: sompirasti (2000.00) Seat 5: el_lejia2 (2000.00) Seat 6: rveraca (2000.00) Seat 7: Griff505 (2000.00) Seat 8: jolly67 (2000.00) Seat 9: cripoker (2000.00) Seat 10: RIONILO (2000.00) RTXpoker post SB 10.00 cineasta post BB 20.00 ** Deal ** ValeDown [Jd, Jh] RTXpoker [N/A, N/A] cineasta [N/A, N/A] sompirasti [N/A, N/A] el_lejia2 [N/A, N/A] rveraca [N/A, N/A] Griff505 [N/A, N/A] jolly67 [N/A, N/A] cripoker [N/A, N/A] RIONILO [N/A, N/A] *** Bet Round 1 *** sompirasti Fold el_lejia2 Call 20.00 rveraca Fold Griff505 Fold jolly67 Fold cripoker Call 20.00 RIONILO Fold ValeDown Call 20.00 RTXpoker Call 20.00 cineasta Raise to 120.00 el_lejia2 Fold cripoker Call 120.00 ValeDown Call 120.00 RTXpoker Call 120.00 *** Flop(Board): *** : [3c, 5h, 2s] *** Bet Round 2 *** RTXpoker Check cineasta Bet 140.00 cripoker Call 140.00 ValeDown Raise to 700.00 RTXpoker Fold cineasta Call 700.00 cripoker Call 700.00 *** Turn(Board): *** : [3c, 5h, 2s, Ks] *** Bet Round 3 *** cineasta Check cripoker Check ValeDown Check *** River(Board): *** : [3c, 5h, 2s, Ks, 10h] *** Bet Round 4 *** cineasta All-in 1180.00 cripoker Fold ValeDown Fold *** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 2600.00 ValeDown Fold Win: 0.00 RTXpoker Fold Win: 0.00 cineasta By default Win: 2600.00 sompirasti Fold Win: 0.00 el_lejia2 Fold Win: 0.00 rveraca Fold Win: 0.00 Griff505 Fold Win: 0.00 jolly67 Fold Win: 0.00 cripoker Fold Win: 0.00 RIONILO Fold Win: 0.00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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