A 10s, mid position

[AJ]

Scenario. No Limit Hold'em. low stakes cash game; $1/$2 blinds. 9 player table, pretty tight table 3 or 4 players seeing the flop on average You are in mid position, 4th to act. You are dealt A 10s Player whom you consider fairly tight, raises to $10 from UTG It's folded round to you. Call / Raise / Fold with reasons please

[The Quiet Man]

Re: A 10s, mid position

Scenario. No Limit Hold'em. low stakes cash game; $1/$2 blinds. 9 player table, pretty tight table 3 or 4 players seeing the flop on average You are in mid position, 4th to act. You are dealt A 10s Player whom you consider fairly tight, raises to $10 from UTG It's folded round to you. Call / Raise / Fold with reasons please

Easy fold for me! :ok Tight player UTG raising 5 x BB - you're way behind! :cry Fold and wait for a better opportunity! TQM

[glceud]

Re: A 10s, mid position Got to agree its a very easy fold for me too, not only are you behind but you certainley dont have a hand that could call a reraise behind you. Suprised at the question AJ, is there some ulterior motive?

[slick mick]

Re: A 10s, mid position Under the right circumstances a call may be possible, how well does the raiser play after the flop?

[Nade]

Re: A 10s, mid position

Under the right circumstances a call may be possible' date=' how well does the raiser play after the flop?[/quote'] Firstly i'm folding this all day long, however to play devils advocate ... If the player is passive post flop, like a rock who doesn't bet if they don't hit for example, then i feel a re-raise would be better than a call - if you're on the button/cut off. TBH i would only do it very rarely as it is pretty 50/50 of working or not (or 1/3 of them hitting the flop if we're being precise) Hypothetically, the re-raise here will represent incredible strength i.e. JJ+ so the initial raiser who is already passive post flop, if they see an A even if they have KK they'll fold - trust me i've pulled it off (they showed KK). Position is vital here as well, you need to know it's only going to be you 2 in the pot and you're going to act last. I don't see any reason for calling in this exact situation as you're behind and there's no way of representing real strength because of the position you're in. But i'm all ears to conflicting arguments.

[GaF]

Re: A 10s, mid position

If the player is passive post flop' date=' like a rock who doesn't bet if they don't hit for example, then i feel a re-raise would be better than a call - if you're on the button/cut off. [/quote'] So you accept you are behind now, but believe you can outplay him on the flop - why on earth reraise? What if he re reraises you? Or worse puts you all in? The more money goes in pre flop, the less advantage you have through outplaying him post flop .... can accept the reasoning you give in exceptional circumstances not to fold, but it has to be a call and not a reraise IMO :unsure

[slapdash]

Re: A 10s, mid position

So you accept you are behind now' date=' but believe you can outplay him on the flop - why on earth reraise? What if he re reraises you? Or worse puts you all in? The more money goes in pre flop, the less advantage you have through outplaying him post flop .... can accept the reasoning you give in exceptional circumstances not to fold, but it has to be a call and not a reraise IMO :unsure[/quote'] First of all, like almost everybody else, I'd fold. But I can see some sense in what Nade said. If you think that this is a player that you can bully off the pot, then it may be best to start bullying as soon as possible. The effect of your post-flop action is not independent of your pre-flop action and (depending on the flop) he may be a lot more likely to give up after the flop if you've raised pre-flop. He might even fold to your pre-flop reraise, and if not then his reaction to it will help you decide post-flop what he's likely to have. If I'd had a rush of blood to the head and reraised, and he rereraised a significant amount, then I don't think the blood supply to my head is going to be enough to make me call.

[GaF]

Re: A 10s, mid position

If you think that this is a player that you can bully off the pot, then it may be best to start bullying as soon as possible. The effect of your post-flop action is not independent of your pre-flop action and (depending on the flop) he may be a lot more likely to give up after the flop if you've raised pre-flop. He might even fold to your pre-flop reraise, and if not then his reaction to it will help you decide post-flop what he's likely to have.

I suppose the deciding factor in that is just how deep stacked you are....

[Nade]

Re: A 10s, mid position

So you accept you are behind now' date=' but believe you can outplay him on the flop - why on earth reraise? [b']What if he re reraises you? Or worse puts you all in? The more money goes in pre flop, the less advantage you have through outplaying him post flop .... can accept the reasoning you give in exceptional circumstances not to fold, but it has to be a call and not a reraise IMO :unsure

Like Slapdash says if he re-re raises then it's an easy lay down, but more often then not they'll call, which is the exact sign of weakness you'll take advantage of post flop.

First of all, like almost everybody else, I'd fold. But I can see some sense in what Nade said. If you think that this is a player that you can bully off the pot, then it may be best to start bullying as soon as possible. The effect of your post-flop action is not independent of your pre-flop action and (depending on the flop) he may be a lot more likely to give up after the flop if you've raised pre-flop. He might even fold to your pre-flop reraise, and if not then his reaction to it will help you decide post-flop what he's likely to have. If I'd had a rush of blood to the head and reraised, and he rereraised a significant amount, then I don't think the blood supply to my head is going to be enough to make me call.

The highlighted part is what i'm thinking, the last part is true also. By showing that strength pre-flop you have more chance of winning the pot post flop, rather than if you'd called pre flop the initial raiser will think they're ahead. TBH i really don't get how you're more likely to win the pot post flop by calling than raising. Calling doesn't represent any strength at all so the raiser is likely to think they're still ahead post flop in most circumstances where as if you re-raise it puts more seeds of doubt and extra pressure on someone who is tight and hates being put under the strain. I'm not saying re-raising is a brilliant play, merely that you've got more chance of winning the pot by raising than calling.

[slapdash]

Re: A 10s, mid position

TBH i really don't get how you're more likely to win the pot post flop by calling than raising.

I think it's clear that you're more likely to win the pot if you reraise than if you call. But by reraising you're increasing the amount you lose when you don't win the pot. And I agree with GaF that it's very relevant how deep the stacks are.

[Nade]

Re: A 10s, mid position

I think it's clear that you're more likely to win the pot if you reraise than if you call. But by reraising you're increasing the amount you lose when you don't win the pot. And I agree with GaF that it's very relevant how deep the stacks are.

Yep i'd say you and the initial raiser must have $150 at least to re-raise with and be able to take the pot in this circumstance.

[AJ]

Re: A 10s, mid position

Got to agree its a very easy fold for me too, not only are you behind but you certainley dont have a hand that could call a reraise behind you. Suprised at the question AJ, is there some ulterior motive?

Yes, kind of. Although I agree it's an easy easy fold. The thread has went exactly the way I wanted though. It's turned into a "If you don't fold, is it better to raise than cold call it ?" debate. Everyday millions of people flat call this bet, then fold on the flop to a pot sized bet. In this scenario I think we can assume the orginal raiser is holding QQ - AA, if one of these cards hits on the flop, which is a 74% (ish) probability, and he bets out a pot sized bet or more, unless you've flopped a flush, or hit your ace (24% chance) it's virtually impossible to bet against his set, represented or real. Even if you've hit your ace you could be miles behind. A reraise on the other hand, at least gives you options. I was reading Slansky last night, he hates flat calls preflop, he list 2 or 3 circumstances where it's the correct play, but says on average you should flat call a preflop raise perhaps once every 550 hands. So I guess the question is, is cold calling a raise ever right (might be different in a tourney, let's think cash game) and why the hell do people do it ?? Is this something we should be looking for in terms of table selection ?

[slapdash]

Re: A 10s, mid position

I was reading Slansky last night, he hates flat calls preflop, he list 2 or 3 circumstances where it's the correct play, but says on average you should flat call a preflop raise perhaps once every 550 hands.

Are you sure he wasn't talking about limit poker? I'm no expert (glceud?), but (assuming you decide not to fold) I think it's more clearcut in limit to raise rather than call than it is in no-limit.

[AJ]

Re: A 10s, mid position he may well have been talking about limit. but I cast the question up as a general point of theory for no limit as well. When should you cold call as opposed to raising, and do people cold call far to often ?

[GaF]

Re: A 10s, mid position I still think I call (actually I fold, but if persuaded to play....), in the very specific situation where I am confident I am behind, against a weak player who has a premium hand - if he is a rock, and has put in a decent raise, and I reraise, I dont expect him to call, he is pretty confident he is ahead, I'm expecting him to rereraise given the opportunity - I dont want to give him the opportunity to do that - post flop there will probably be more doubts for him - Nade specifically said he plays his hands - if he bets he's ahead, if he doesn't he's behind - if he really is as transparent as that, then post flop it's easy - if he bets into me, he has the goods, has hit and I fold - if he checks, he had AK and missed, I bet the pot and he folds.... in this situation, your cards actually dont matter too much - you're playing the player - AT or 72 - you're not going to showdown, makes no difference..... This is all pretty theoretical though - practically, I reckon I allways fold...

[slapdash]

Re: A 10s, mid position

I still think I call (actually I fold, but if persuaded to play....), in the very specific situation where I am confident I am behind, against a weak player who has a premium hand - if he is a rock, and has put in a decent raise, and I reraise, I dont expect him to call, he is pretty confident he is ahead, I'm expecting him to rereraise given the opportunity - I dont want to give him the opportunity to do that - post flop there will probably be more doubts for him - Nade specifically said he plays his hands - if he bets he's ahead, if he doesn't he's behind - if he really is as transparent as that, then post flop it's easy - if he bets into me, he has the goods, has hit and I fold - if he checks, he had AK and missed, I bet the pot and he folds.... in this situation, your cards actually dont matter too much - you're playing the player - AT or 72 - you're not going to showdown, makes no difference..... This is all pretty theoretical though - practically, I reckon I allways fold...

Can I nominate that for the "Longest Post Without a Full Stop" award?

[GaF]

Re: A 10s, mid position What do you mean, there are 16 of them ;) :tongue2 :loon :$

[glceud]

Re: A 10s, mid position Guess the flat call every 500 hands is one of the 2 times you get aces depending on the opponent ie trap the other rock. Think there might some point in only entering a pot with only a hand that is strong enough to reraise with, which sounds more like the Slansky rock of old. But if Slansky ever reraises a rock with A/10 I'll buy every one on the forum a beer. However in NL the implied odds surely allow you to call with inferior hands, you cant really reraise with pkt 6,s can you. Does it give you the chance to win the pot preflop and a better chance to win it on the flop, maybe,but I wont be "investing" a few $1000 to find out In fixed limit you should fold pkt 6's to a raise every time unless there is a likelyhood of at least three other players in the pot, so yes I would say you should only reraise in limit but your reraising hands in my book are limited to aa/kk/qq/jj and ak.

[ubermonkey1]

Re: A 10s, mid position i might actually call here if we both have big stacks ,and as gaf says i think i can outplay them post flop ,but only in a cash game:ok. i dont think a reraise is likely after you as you are both showing strength even by only calling him ,but you may get value callers to boost the pot. i would put him on a high pp or ak but i dont think he has aces ,even if he has you still have straight/flush outs. although you will get more unfriendly flops than friendly ,the friendly ones can quite often double you up, so its worth the risk if you have a big pot possible.you just need to be carefull with it and fold on the flop if trouble comes,also with position you can pick up a few pots that are unfriendly to them,no bet then you bet. i will quite happily lose $5 20 times to win $100 once with a double through and pick up a few $10 pots on the flop. also who is expecting you with a 10. most people would junk it so most people wouldnt expect it;)which makes you a bit tricky to read.

[glceud]

Re: A 10s, mid position

also who is expecting you with a 10. most people would junk it so most people wouldnt expect it;)which makes you a bit tricky to read.

yea but 4/7 or 8/9 or 10/2 all do this. A/10 just gives you more chance of losing even if you hit. A/10 has to be the worst hand that AJ could have put up in this thread(more ulterior motives) It is one hand you cant call a rock with.

[ubermonkey1]

Re: A 10s, mid position yeah i agree and do like playing suited connectors/semiconnectors in a lot of situations like this. there is a big difference between those sort of hands and 10 2, 4 7 etc,i want cards with more possible outs and that give me a pretty much nut hand on the flop or at least straight and flush outs if you do hit 3 to a flush or straight the chances are he will bet heavily because thats what a rock would do with a high pp or maybe trips if he hit on the flop as well . also i am not saying i do this a lot ,its just against players i think i have a good read on and in certain situations that make it more worthwhile. ie you both have large stacks. if either one of you hasnt got a big stack it doesn't make sense because you fold more than you make or you get caught in the hand because its less to call. if i think i can outplay the opponent i know i can get out on the flop if i dont hit at least 2 pair, i will fold to a reraise if he checks and i bet,so the risk is minimal. if i hit a really good flop he will be a lot more commited to putting money in the pot and if i play it well the rewards are very good.