JJ in early position with deep stacks

[GaF]

Damo seems pretty mortified :tongue2 by my pre flop limp here - I'm quite comfortable with it - mainly because I'm in early position and the blinds are so low - but interested in others thoughts :ok

***** Hand 809376635 ***** 10.00/20.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit ) - 31 October 2007 19:06:22 EUR1 Challenge (Real /Tournament ) Seat 1: robilaruk (1980.00) Seat 2: morlspin1 (1490.00) Seat 3: Ukdobbin (1500.00) Seat 4: ValeDown (1500.00) Seat 5: BLUEPENNPL (1290.00) Seat 6: Adetrick1 (1490.00) Seat 7: Sharpe1ne (1300.00) Seat 8: heniek31 (1450.00) Seat 9: CATHCASH3 (1500.00) robilaruk post SB 10.00 morlspin1 post BB 20.00 ** Deal ** robilaruk [N/A, N/A] morlspin1 [N/A, N/A] Ukdobbin [N/A, N/A] ValeDown [Jd, Js] BLUEPENNPL [N/A, N/A] Adetrick1 [N/A, N/A] Sharpe1ne [N/A, N/A] heniek31 [N/A, N/A] CATHCASH3 [N/A, N/A] *** Bet Round 1 *** Ukdobbin Fold ValeDown Call 20.00 BLUEPENNPL Fold Adetrick1 Fold Sharpe1ne Fold heniek31 Fold CATHCASH3 Call 20.00 robilaruk Call 20.00 morlspin1 Check *** Flop(Board): *** : [7s, 7c, 8s] *** Bet Round 2 *** robilaruk Check morlspin1 Check ValeDown Bet 80.00 CATHCASH3 Call 80.00 robilaruk Fold morlspin1 Fold *** Turn(Board): *** : [7s, 7c, 8s, Jh] *** Bet Round 3 *** ValeDown Bet 160.00 CATHCASH3 Call 160.00 *** River(Board): *** : [7s, 7c, 8s, Jh, 10c] *** Bet Round 4 *** ValeDown Bet 240.00 CATHCASH3 Call 240.00 *** Showdown *** : Rake: 0.00 Total Pot: 1040.00 robilaruk Fold Win: 0.00 morlspin1 Fold Win: 0.00 Ukdobbin Fold Win: 0.00 ValeDown [Jd, Js] Full house Win: 1040.00 BLUEPENNPL Fold Win: 0.00 Adetrick1 Fold Win: 0.00 Sharpe1ne Fold Win: 0.00 heniek31 Fold Win: 0.00 CATHCASH3 Fold Win: 0.00

[robilaruk]

Re: JJ in early position with deep stacks I don't think that limping when 1st in the pot is never ever ever a good play simply because the BB gets in for 'free' and the SB wiill probably make up, so you are up against at least 2 others with your two cards and you encourage others who have postion on you to limp after you do - I would always come in for a raise, even a min raise is better than limp call. Limping behind someone is more acceptable esp with JJ-22 etc when you are hoping for a set at least. As I said on the table I did like your flop turn and river bets though:ok Damo not exactly mortified, just surprised :)

[GaF]

Re: JJ in early position with deep stacks

you encourage others who have postion on you to limp after you do - I would always come in for a raise' date='[/quote'] I'm treating it as a drawing hand - I want to hit a monster and I want other people in the pot because I want someone else to hit a good hand - I'm specifically looking to stack someone (or at least make a big dent).... As you say - I'm out of position against most potential players - I probably wont hit my monster - If I raise and am successful, I win 30 chips. If I raise and am called, then I'm playing a raised (big) pot out of position, probably with overcards on the flop If I raise and am reraised, then I have a tough decision and am not feeling good about my Jacks.... I'm now in a very big pot out of position with vulnerable cards By playing it passively pre flop, most of the time I will not win the pot, but when I do hit, I'll be pretty confident I'm ahead and can win a big pot...

[Nade]

Re: JJ in early position with deep stacks Damo i'm sure it was you the other week in a PL game limping UTG, i limped behind you with 1010 avon re-raised in MP and we both folded. You said you couldn't believe i limped with 1010 behind you but like Gaf with his jacks i'm looking to hit the flop hard, but in the end the raise was too big for me to call. For you Gaf i'd say limping with a premium hand is strange play as it seems to go against your whole mathematical ethos, but that is a good thing as there needs to be freedom and creativity in everyone's play i think. I've limped with jacks i've folded jacks and i've raised jacks, pretty much depends on my mood what i'm doing here but probably 85% raise 15% call. The key i feel to open limping is knowing what you're doing post flop no matter what combination of cards come, and you do know what you're doing Gaf so it's not a bad play.

[SteveO]

Re: JJ in early position with deep stacks I would also limp probably 70% of the time and treat it as a drawing hand if you raise and then someone reraises the pot suddenly becomes big and you're out of position. When blinds are this small I believe limping is the best option!

[GaF]

Re: JJ in early position with deep stacks

For you Gaf i'd say limping with a premium hand is strange play as it seems to go against your whole mathematical ethos' date=' but that is a good thing as there needs to be freedom and creativity in everyone's play i think. I've limped with jacks i've folded jacks and i've raised jacks, pretty much depends on my mood what i'm doing here but probably 85% raise 15% call.[/quote'] You flatter me Nade.... Perhaps another significant reason is my lack of confidence in my post flop play - I limp out of fear!! My post flop decisions are a lot easier - I dont trust myself to be able to work out where I am when there are overcards on the board - by limping it's relatively easy - hit a set and bet the hell out of it - miss the set and check call or check fold

[Nade]

Re: JJ in early position with deep stacks How can someone who's won a bazillion tournaments, is some sort of mathematical poker demi god convince themselves they can't play post flop?

[Pondicherry]

Re: JJ in early position with deep stacks I would raise here but I can see your reasoning for a limp this early in the tornament. How would you play QQ, KK and AA.

[GaF]

Re: JJ in early position with deep stacks :lol :lol :lol :lol As I said mate, you flatter me ;) Maybe my biggest strength is being aware of my weaknesses and being able to play to avoid them ;)

[GaF]

Re: JJ in early position with deep stacks

I would raise here but I can see your reasoning for a limp this early in the tornament. How would you play QQ' date=' KK and AA.[/quote'] I would usually raise large (more than a standard 3xBB raise) - especially with KK or AA....

[happyhornet]

Re: JJ in early position with deep stacks Like most others i would raise most of the time here. The reason for posting is a post I saw on either 2+2 or pocket fives. The author figured that in the very early blind levels you raise to 60 with your biggish hand, you could take it down and win 15. Who cares, right? It is not going to influence your tourney. Even if you get a caller, bet post flop, and he folds, you have won 75. Again no biggie. He claimed that by limping in you have a chance of taking a larger amount of chips, and thus make it worthwhile. The rider is of course not to fall in love with the hand if you appear to be behind.

[staffy]

Re: JJ in early position with deep stacks In this kind of tourny its an easy limp for me also. With the blinds so low you are looking for a monster hand to win a large amount of chips otherwise its not always worth playing them.

[BAM]

Re: JJ in early position with deep stacks

I would usually raise large (more than a standard 3xBB raise) - especially with KK or AA....

There is a school (that I subscribe to) that states that all preflop raises should be exactly the same regardless of hand and position, so to give off little information. I have just finished reading an interesting piece by Jesus about disguising post flop betting as well but thats by the by in this thread. IMO the cards don't matter, it is deciding whether you want to enter the pot or not, based on other factors. If you do want to bet, a raise is always the best option regardless of position.

[GaF]

Re: JJ in early position with deep stacks

There is a school (that I subscribe to) that states that all preflop raises should be exactly the same regardless of hand and position' date=' [/quote'] That has historically been my view too :ok (actually and still is, generally). I do find premium pocket pairs, with MASSIVE implied odds, and in a low stakes game an exception though.... Just been reading an alternative view, presumably in "No Limit Holdem: Theory and Practice" where they reject this .... will see if I can dig out exactly what they said....

[robilaruk]

Re: JJ in early position with deep stacks as I said in my original post, limping behind someone else is acceptable with a small to mid PP hoping to use position and hit a set, (and against a perceived loose player like me with position with 10 10, then raising is even better!) but limping first into the pot is never good (in 99.9% of cases) Damo

Damo i'm sure it was you the other week in a PL game limping UTG, i limped behind you with 1010 avon re-raised in MP and we both folded. You said you couldn't believe i limped with 1010 behind you but like Gaf with his jacks i'm looking to hit the flop hard, but in the end the raise was too big for me to call. .

[SteveO]

Re: JJ in early position with deep stacks but limping first into the pot is never good (in 99.9% of cases) I totally disagree with this for me it has more to do with what kind of hand you have, what kind of players are acting behind and at what stage of a tournament you're at. I'd say in the late stages of a tourny I would never limp it's bet or fold.

[robsterling]

Re: JJ in early position with deep stacks IMO you lose a lot of value playing JJ as a drawing hand. OK your out of position, but by raising, you can create a bigger pot "to hit your monster" and people may find it harder to get away from their hand in larger pot. Also a hand like JJ is obviously a premium hand and isn't great multiway if the flop comes all low you are still going to lose a bit unless you play it ultra weak. And like it was said before by open raising you can win the pot by taking it down pre or maybe with a c-bet if everyone else folds, or if c-bet called you can shutdown easily and have still lost very little. With the right reads and stats JJ is fine to play postflop so no need to let people in cheap pre.