How long will Vogts last

[Guest Parahandy]

Is he a has been? Is a lack of quality players to blame? Are his tactics hopeless? OR Is Berti on the right road and should be given the time to get it right? Did Wee Broon leave us with a clapped out geriatric squad while his priority was developing his own CV? In the wake of yesterday's disaster is there an answer? IMO there had to be change. What I have grave reservations about is playing players who are not first choice club players. If there's a rock Berti will perish on this is surely it. That said the 2 Premiership central defenders were unbelievably bad. David Weir's showing was the worst display I've ever seen from a Scotland international player. Stevie Crawford is an experienced pro who has been on top of his game for his club this season. He was the one player who looked as if he might produce something when he came on at half time. Why was he left out of the starting line-up in favour of complete rookies who are clearly out of their depth? It begs another question, how well does Vogts know Scottish players. Before yesterday I was backing Berti to improve things but if Lambert and Ferguson had to get heavily involved in the half time talk and judging by the latter's post match comments it looks like Vogts has little respect amongst his senior players. One big problem looms in that if Vogts goes in the next few months which looks highly likely, who would take over? Any thoughts?

[Guest Da Hannanah]

... They did look extremely slaggish on both Faroe goals - caught napping completely in the first 15 minutes. On top of that, the 2nd Scottish goal looked very much like a blatant hand ball - but maybe I got the wrong angle for that one. What is most remarkable, however, is that the Faroes were without a number of their best players!!! It doesn't bode well, but I think Vogts will stick around for a while. Remember Aberdeen and Ebbe Skovdahl? I think Ebbe has bought Vogts some time by finally installing success in the East coast outfit.

[Guest cunniman]

Re: How long will Vogts last Personally, I can't see what all of the complaints are about. We were away to a team who are much better than we are and we stole a point. :) But seriously, I agree with Da Hannah on this one. Yes, they were awful. But there is no point in pushing Vogts out as he needs to be given a much greater chance. Too much emphasis was placed on the previous defeats. But they were all friendlies and he was experimenting with different players. Surely these games should be written of as nothing more than glorified training sessions? But what I think is worrying is the actual performance of the players on the park yesterday and versus Denmark last week. Agreed, we have no forward line, but that shouldn't stop a midfield that contains Lambert and Ferguson and a defence that has 2 Premiership players and 2 Old Firm players from creating chances at one end and preventing them at the other. But they are so far from playing to their abilities it's unbelievable. And why? Clearly Vogts must shoulder some of the responsibility either for non motivation or confusing tactics. The problem with Scotland is that we still have an unrealistic expectation of how good we are/should be in International and European competition. Aberdeen and Livingston were very fortunate to go through playing sides who would be comparable to the Faroes but at club level. But the teams they were playing probably felt the same about them! Celtic were torn apart by a very average Swiss side. I watched Hearts v Hibs a few weeks back. De Vries was making his debut having been signed from apparent obscurity in Holland and he scored 4 goals! I do feel there is an improvement at grass roots level in this country and there are a number of promising youngsters coming through most of the clubs (with the exception of the Old Firm) and financial difficulties has meant that these clubs are being forced to play the home grown talent as opposed to second rate foreigners. So I say, stick with it for a couple of years. Yes, it's going to be embarassing for a while, but I don't think there is a quick fix to this.

[Guest toshibakid]

scotland I dont think he should be sacked,his problem is he doesnt have a good player/players,I think what really shows is the more players u have in a high profile league the better they play,I think wales have improved 10 times over the last year or 2,Rep of ireland aswell,they have alot more EPL players now,I think if scotland can get 7-8 players into the EPL or other leagues which are more competitive,that SPL,No offence ment by that ;) .They will improve aswelll vastly

[Guest The Highlander]

Re: scotland I don't think theres any excuse for Vogts not getting a win yesterday he's already had 5 games to get the team together. He also doesn't seem to have picked a formation or style of play. Even playing teams like Denmark who we know have a better team and players the least you expect is to show improvement in each game instead they seem to be getting worse. I don't think he can use the excuse of not having certain players available simply because they were playing the Faroe Islands and the players available should have been capable of winning the game comfortably. He just seems to be so negative all the time and is destroying team spirit by constantly moaning about the current players and previous manager instead of being positive and getting on with the job. I think he should get another couple of games but if they don't show some improvment and I can't see it happening I don't think he'll have any choice but to quit.

[Guest crowie1969]

Go now Sorry, he is the one who is picking the team which is not getting the results. And its not just results, its the lack of performance as well which is even more depressing. When a manager starts to ask his players whats going wrong then its a sad state of affairs. He should be TELLING them whats wrong and TELLING them what to do to change it. Picking players who are not first choice for their clubs is also going to get you no where at international level. The following players will hopefully all be fully fit and playing a decent level of club football soon as they must all have a decent chance of playing for Scotland Matteo, Naysmith, Davidson, Burley, Cameron, Rae, C Miller, K Miller, Hutchinson, McCann, Burchill. Add in Pressley and get rid of the central defensive clowns. Keep Maurice Ross (unless a better candidate is playing regularly for their club). Let Lambert retire and keep Ferguson (I am Celtic fan so not trying to be biased). The following players should never play for Scotland again. Weir Dailly Johnston Dickov Dobie Kyle Go now and don't come back and take Vogts with you. The rest of you - show some bloody pride and commitment when playing for you country.

[MickeyPaul]

Re: Go now What worries me is Vogts insistence on playing a "big man" and "wee man" combination up front. I thought these continental Europeans were meant to be forward thinking and light years ahead of us in terms of coaching and so on. Kyle isn't even particularly good in the air from what I've seen so far. Another problem, imo, is the inclusion of so many guys who aren't playing for their clubs. It shows up big time with their complete lack of movement and inability to either control or pass the ball. Shocking.

[Guest MC Roller]

Re: Go now My first reaction after the game was to sack Vogts. I'm now prepared to give Vogts a little longer to prove me wrong. ;) Maybe my thoughts were influenced by his treatment of the Aberdeen player during the Denmark game, and then the following debacle in Toftir. Having had time to think now, I don't think there is anything anyone else could have done to change the situation, the personnel just wasn't available. And more worryingly the complete dearth of talent available in Scotland. Don't get me wrong, there are promising players here, but thats all they are, promising, not International class players. We really are in a desperate situation, it will get a lot worse before it gets better. I remember reading somewhere regarding Scotlands selection of non Scots, through Grandparents and such like. Someone was criticising this quite strongly, saying we are desperate for players, while there is probably some truth in this, Scotland aren't the only Nation to do this. Have a look at France for instance, Algerians, Senegalese, Africans, you name it, there all there turning out for France, and not a word said about that. Having watched the game on Saturday, and the pure pain, suffering, humiliation and embarrassment, we can only hope things get better in the future. My concern is, this might be a very very long time in coming. Finally, good to see a journo speaking some sense for a change unlike that tit from the Daily Retard, whats his name, that fat numptey, Traynor, thats him. Vogts sees vessel run aground on islands

[Guest Parahandy]

Re: Go now MC Spiers article is very good. Though perhaps not clear from my original post in this thread, I do agree that Vogts needs more time. However, for an experienced coach he does seem rather naive in some ways, the most obvious being playing players who are not first choice picks at their clubs. This is a complete no no. The most worrying aspect of all is that we don't look like a team. No cohesion and no apparent anticipation of what team mates are doing with the ball and making runs etc. The Faroes did look like a team and moved the ball around much better than we did. After the game I couldn't even console myself with the thought of Kyle playing like that in Rangers colours ;) Wish McLeish had moved a bit quicker for him. As the song says "Things can only get better". . .well hopefully.