20070806 Virgin PL STT - The End

[GaF]

[voiceofjoe]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - The End Good game enjoyed watching the experiment. My opinion of the Heads Up - the best player won, Brian was willing to play poker - the All-In or fold policy adopted by gaF makes the decisions of your opponent easier, and leaves little room for error Well Played all

[slapdash]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - The End

My opinion of the Heads Up - the best player won, Brian was willing to play poker - the All-In or fold policy adopted by gaF makes the decisions of your opponent easier, and leaves little room for error

Well, he only started "all-in or fold" when the blinds got to 600/1200, so the shorter stack was never much more than about five big blinds. I think trying to "play poker" with the blinds that high is like trying to do synchronized swimming in the bath ... there just isn't enough room. It's true that making a bet less than all-in gives your opponent more options (fold, call or raise), and might give him a difficult decision (between folding or calling, or between calling and raising) that he wouldn't have had if you'd gone all-in. But if he raises your bet all-in himself, then the odds are such that you pretty much have to call, whatever your hand is. So if he just folds when he'd have folded to an all-in bet, and goes all-in if he'd have called an all-in bet, then he's in exactly the same situation as if you'd gone all-in yourself, so your smaller bet has no advantagee for you. All it does is give your opponent an extra option.

[Nade]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - The End Very good game overall for PL. Not sure what to comment on tbh as when in the money the cards played themselves i think.

[GaF]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - The End Cheers VoJ - appreciate all opinions, even where it's cobblers :lol :lol :lol :tongue2 I think slapdash has summed my opinion up pretty well :ok In general, I think people are too late to get into the "all in or fold" mode, because they want to "play poker" - I accept I get into the hyper aggressive play earlier than most, BUT I believe that it is right to do so. I feel I'm taking advantage of the "Poker Snobbery" I alluded to here - http://www.punterslounge.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51480 - where people would rather wait to outplay me, than take the 60-40 shot in their favour.... by the time they decide to make I stand, I have already won more chips than I risk losing..... I believe in general my opponent makes far more mistakes this way, by folding when they should call!! Would be interested in Brians take on this :ok

[voiceofjoe]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - The End

Would be interested in Brians take on this :ok

Ok - I first watched the Vid before I left for work this morning, so was prepared to accept that my first impressions were wrong. I've just watched it again and I'm even more convinced that I was right - :lol:lol:lol I think your comments are a little blinkered in regards of your technique and against Brian ! -However I think the comment on hand 79 will make him smile - I think it couldn't be further from the truth. ;) But then again everyone plays differently, that's what makes it such an intriguing pastime, and I presume you wouldn't have gone to these lengths if you didn't want feedback :ok

[slapdash]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - The End I've been thinking about this a bit more. Let's have some specific figures to have a definite situation to talk about. Say both players start with 6 big blinds. Suppose the SB bets 3xBB. Then my previous point was that if the BB raises all-in, the SB must call (he's getting 3/1 pot odds, and so even if he has 32o and the range he puts the BB on is top 10% hands, then he has the odds to call). So the SB might as well have gone all-in. But now look at it from the point of view of the BB. The 3xBB bet has given him an extra option of calling. My question now is: does this help him? If he calls rather than raising, he has the benefit of seeing the flop before deciding whether to commit the rest of his chips, but so does the SB, and the SB has the benefit of position after the flop. So are there any hands he could have where calling is both better than folding and better than raising? I don't know the answer, though I haven't thought too much about it, but if there aren't, then it doesn't actually matter whether the SB goes all-in or makes a 3xBB bet.

[GaF]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - The End If the BB just calls a small raise from the SB, then as the BB to act first, I shove almost regardless of the flop - perfect chance for a stop and go... If the SB has no part of the flop, it's tough to call, whatever the odds....

[GaF]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - The End

I've just watched it again and I'm even more convinced that I was right - :lol:lol:lol

I'll watch it again with your comments in mind when I have a quieter moment :ok

[BAM]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - The End Tut tut VoJ you should know better than the criticise GaF on this forum :lol;) I haven't watch it yet but will try and watch it later. What I remember from the time we played it GaF's aggression seemed a little uncontrolled and then a couple of times he played very weak. When we got down to the final 3 I knew I would win, mainly because I felt so confident in my play and in control of the game (it is not just about cards you know) and I am also a far superior player than Jolly and GaF ;)

[GaF]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - The End

Tut tut VoJ you should know better than the criticise GaF on this forum :lol;);)

I know you're jesting, but I don't want to leave any room for doubt - the reason I did this vid was to get feedback, and hopefully views that challenge the way I play - whilst VoJ is a long way from convincing me yet, I welcome the debate and hope he'll give me an insight that improves my game :ok

[slapdash]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - The End

If the BB just calls a small raise from the SB' date=' then as the BB to act first, I shove almost regardless of the flop - perfect chance for a stop and go... If the SB has no part of the flop, it's tough to call, whatever the odds....[/quote'] If your strategy as BB after the flop here were to shove regardless of the flop (OK ... I know you said "almost"), and if the SB realizes this, then it would clearly have been better for you to shove before the flop.

[GaF]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - The End

and if the SB realizes this, then it would clearly have been better for you to shove before the flop.

I disagree - shove pre flop and you should have no fold equity. Shove post flop, and if the SB, with an average hand (say 78s), misses totally(say J Q A rainbow), then he has to seriously look at folding.... Even if he knows what you are doing, his 8 high has less than a 3-1 shot of beating your hand....

[slapdash]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - The End

I disagree - shove pre flop and you should have no fold equity. Shove post flop' date=' and if the SB, with an average hand (say 78s), misses totally(say J Q A rainbow), then he has to seriously look at folding.... Even if he knows what you are doing, his 8 high has less than a 3-1 shot of beating your hand....[/quote'] But (assuming you always shove postflop), then if he always calls postflop then he does exactly as well as if you had shoved preflop. So he has a strategy that does as well as if you had shoved preflop. Whatever his best strategy is postflop, it can't be worse than this!

[slapdash]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - The End Or to put it another way, if he folds postflop when he has less than a 3-1 chance of beating you, then he loses when you have a bad hand, but he gains more when you have a good hand. If he does have less than a 3-1 chance then he saves chips on average by folding, that he'd have lost if you'd shoved preflop.