20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 7 - This is where it gets interesting IMO

[GaF]

[voiceofjoe]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 7 - This is where it gets interesting IMO Interesting viewing, 2 unbelievable folds here with the blinds the size they are MCFC folds TT, 4 Handed Pre-Flop ?! :unsure and even more unbelievable Jolly folds 2 pair on a raggy flop with only a small amount to call ?! :loon However credit to you all for putting your self up to the scrutiny of numptys like myself :clap

[McG]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 7 - This is where it gets interesting IMO

Interesting viewing, 2 unbelievable folds here with the blinds the size they are MCFC folds TT, 4 Handed Pre-Flop ?! :unsure and even more unbelievable Jolly folds 2 pair on a raggy flop with only a small amount to call ?! :loon However credit to you all for putting your self up to the scrutiny of numptys like myself :clap

These have been really interesting, especially as the levels increased. Funnily enough, I can understand Brian's reluctance to call with TT and risk it all, but Jolly's fold in hand 55 has me puzzled. I'd have put GaF on, perhaps, 9 with a decent kicker, so surely it was worth that extra 1000 chips to call him. Was he playing more than 1 table and got confused?

[jolly67]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 7 - This is where it gets interesting IMO Thanks for all the work you put into this GaF? it's been very interesting. I've took onboard your comments about my raises later on, I have tended to stay with my 2-5 times raise to rigidly and have been trying out your idea of pushing more.I'm aware that my "endgame" isn't the strongest part of my game so to see how others do things has been very helpful. I'm surprised I haven't been slaughtered big time for that put down in hand 55:$ every time I've looked at it since I can't believe I folded it.At the time I went into a blind panic as I realised that if I lost the hand I was going to be in touching distance of 4th. I very rarely play STT's at that level (usually 5-10) and I think getting in the money came into my head too. I now realise it should have been called without a second thought and I'd have been in great position to go on and win it. thanks again:ok

[GaF]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 7 - This is where it gets interesting IMO

I very rarely play STT's at that level (usually 5-10) and I think getting in the money came into my head too. I now realise it should have been called without a second thought and I'd have been in great position to go on and win it. thanks again:ok

My intention wasn't to take peple out of their comfort zone - I'll make sure the next one is a cheaper buy in. (though I think it illustrates the concept of "scared money" very well and really demonstrates why we shouldn't venture far out of our comfort zone) With regards to pre flop raises - in general it is my view that as the blinds go up, then your raises as a multiple of the BB can decrease, with the same result. So whilst you might be raising 5x BB with low blinds, with higher blinds (pre the period where it's shove or fold)you can look at raises of 2.5xBB (and EVEN min raises in some circumstances!!!) - my "criticism" was that it looked like you were trying to bully (yet get away from reraises) with 4x-5x BB raises when you were chip leader and blinds were getting big - to bully with a big stack, your standard raise should be smaller IMO (Im not saying you should have been in shove or fold mode).

[BAM]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 7 - This is where it gets interesting IMO Bubble time :loon Hand 47 - great move by Jolly at this stage in the tourney, with his stack and position against that player I would have done the same :clap. Hand 48 - I move against flva's BB again (he must be getting sick of me now) 4 handed with my stack any A and most K's I'm going in. Hand 49 - Cheap move by GaF :tongue2 Hand 50 - easy shove from me Hand 52 - I know I hand a hand this time but I'm shoving again on flva's BB he is too weak, it is easy money, I can't believe my fellow Pler's haven't took advantage yet. Hand 53 - At the time it was a fairly easy lay down, I accept some of the comments on here but I would rather be the aggressor with TT I have got to feel I am in a race and I will have the opportunity to find a better spot. Sometimes you have to think 'do I really need to do it?' rather than let your cards do the talking. I have picked up the blinds twice on this round so losing one BB is no problem. I also fully understand GaF's lay down. Nice play by Jolly :clap Hand 54 - Jolly doesn't like my agression now and lays down the better hand - see problem solved :dude Sorry Jolly but you should have had me to the rail there with A T at this stage to a cheap SB raise. Hand 55 - :eek:eek:eek:eek:eek:eek I would love to know what you were thinking Jolly, one hell of a lay down. Hand 56 - Nice move GaF :clap:clap:clap

[GaF]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 6 Cheers Bri - interesting comments :ok Question back at you, to help me understand how I'm perceived.... At the beginning you said I was predictable - I've now made a few moves - do they surprise you? Or do you view that as normal for a TAG player as stacks get short and totally predictable play by me?

[BAM]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 6

Cheers Bri - interesting comments :ok Question back at you, to help me understand how I'm perceived.... At the beginning you said I was predictable - I've now made a few moves - do they surprise you? Or do you view that as normal for a TAG player as stacks get short and totally predictable play by me?

:tongue2

[BAM]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 7 - This is where it gets interesting IMO In all honesty GaF my comment about Damo and yourself being predictable was tongue in cheek. I do not play against Damo enough to know anything about his game and I view you as one of the best tournament players on PL. I came to this forum as a cash player and learnt everything I know about tournies from this forum. The past 3 or 4 months I have gone back to cash and the main reason for this is I enjoy playing cash and I dont enjoy tournies. I was speaking to AlunB in Vegas about how it is impossible to mix the two, you have to be in a cash frame of mind or a tourney frame of mind and it has to be your focus for weeks not hours. Apart from that ring games are easier to fit into my schedule :lol. However, I have been reading a very interesting book recently so I have been trying out of few of its principles in tournaments. The moves you have made to get down to the final 4 of this have been excellent but in a turbo sit and go we are all probably forced to make them moves against our will. I do prefer the deeper tournies and I love playing live so I am doing a lot of research and experimenting on how to improve towards that. I think a lot of poker players who have sprung up in the past 2/3 years (myself included) have been institutionalised into playing a certain way. they have all read Harrington, Sklansky, Brunson, studied Hellmuth and Ivey, they read all the magazines and digest the 2+2 forums. This has created a world where you can easily read what a player is going to do, they have become the normal poker player, they are predictable. A couple of threads I have put in strategy I have been amazed by the replies, it is almost robotic. The infamous 'laying down AA first hand' thread I was relieved to see that we got at least 4 Pler's who said yes otherwise my faith in this forum would have gone out of the window. I see Nick Wealthall has covered this point in this months Inside Poker. In fact I have found this months IP the best yet in the strategy section, Karl Mahrenholz's short stack strategy is something I have been advocating for a while (It's good to see the pro's coming round to my way of thinking ;)). The thinking and strategy has to be fluid and ever developing and nobody is ever right or wrong, poker decisions are about the individual. In making those decisions you may need to be a bit leftfield or a bit Edward De Bono to succeed. In my opinion the best exponent of this at the moment on this forum is Heniek. For myself my life is too busy with work and family to attempt to get too far with poker so I play for the enjoyment and when I stop enjoying it I stop playing. Keep up the good work GaF I have enjoyed this little experiment and thanks for the hard work you have put into it, now lets roll the tape I am dying to see how it finishes :unsure

[GaF]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 7 - This is where it gets interesting IMO

In all honesty GaF my comment about Damo and yourself being predictable was tongue in cheek.

lol - cheers mate - didn't think it was tongue in cheek at all - mainly because you hit a nerve!! I feel a lot of the time that what I'm doing is so transparent and must be obvious and that I really MUST be totally predicatable - so it's what I fear more than anything..... I subscribe to the view that "I mix it up enough through my own ineptitude that I don't need to mix it up any more"..... I know what you mean about we've all been programmed a certain way, and there is a LOT to be said for contrarianism (in a lot of spheres on PL, not just Poker) - but I think at the levels we play at, there are still enough players who haven't read Harrington et al (surely everyone SHOULD, if for no other reason than to be able to get inside the heads of your opponents who have read and digested it all?) that pretty straightforward play to these philossifies is still profitable..... Nick Wealthall's article was excellent :ok (actually, they usually are ;) I really like reading his and Casper Berry's musings...) - he says "If you're the casual player who has qualified through a satellite, this is an almost automatic call. Yes, someone else may have the aces and yes, you'll lose the hand most of the time but you have the best hand right now and an opportunity to make 90,000 chips. If you're an average player in the field, it's extremely unlikely you'll get to this stack by passing and finding a series of better spots" - I still dont see an argument for (any of us) folding, and think that anyone who does is off their trolley :tongue2

now lets roll the tape I am dying to see how it finishes :unsure

I think we've seen the important bits - might skip the rest :tongue2

[slapdash]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 7 - This is where it gets interesting IMO

Nick Wealthall's article was excellent :ok (actually' date=' they usually are ;) I really like reading his and Casper Berry's musings...) - he says "If you're the casual player who has qualified through a satellite, this is an almost automatic call. Yes, someone else may have the aces and yes, you'll lose the hand most of the time but you have the best hand right now and an opportunity to make 90,000 chips. If you're an average player in the field, it's extremely unlikely you'll get to this stack by passing and finding a series of better spots" - I still dont see an argument for (any of us) folding, and think that anyone who does is off their trolley :tongue2[/quote'] Also, the scenario in his article was rather different from what we discussed. His (rather unlikely) scenario was that all the other players were all-in. That's very different from having one other player all-in and deciding whether to call and take him on heads-up (presumably), in which case I agree with GaF that folding is one of the loopiest ideas I've come across. Wealthall's scenario is closer, and I wasn't very convinced by his choice of possible hands for the other eight players, or the fact that doing an equity calculation for one particular choice of hands proved much: your chance of winning depends a lot on how much the other hands interfere with each other or with your hand.

[BAM]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 7 - This is where it gets interesting IMO He does say call but my point is how much weight we should give our tournament life. This is an area that a lot of players seem to neglect.

[slapdash]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 7 - This is where it gets interesting IMO

He does say call but my point is how much weight we should give our tournament life. This is an area that a lot of players seem to neglect.

I don't think GaF or I are neglecting that. We're just weighing it against the value of doubling up and coming to the conclusion that in the "call an all-in with AA?" scenario the odds are in favour of trying to double up. (I'm referring to the case where just one player has gone all-in now.) In terms of "tournament life", it's true that by calling you are immediately risking your life, but by folding you are significantly increasing the chance that you will have to risk your life later on, in the middle of the tournament, with much worse odds, and in my opinion this vastly outweighs the immediate danger. I think that folding in this situation is a form of procrastination (a fault that I'm usually very prone to!). By the way, is the book you referred to "Poker Tournament Formula"? I read it recently, and it was interesting, although some of the things he says seemed dubious or downright wrong. I've experimented a little with some of the ideas and I think it's probably going to help improve my game, even if it's just because it's got me experimenting with things I hadn't tried much before. One thing he says in passing in one of the later chapters is that most books advise playing very tight until you're experienced, but he thinks it's better (for your long term results) if you start by playing looser. That makes some sense: if you play loose, you often know what would have happened if you'd played tighter, but if you play tight, you never really get to find out what the effect of being looser would have been.

[BAM]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 7 - This is where it gets interesting IMO

I think that folding in this situation is a form of procrastination (a fault that I'm usually very prone to!).

:rollin:rollin:rollin I dont agree or disagree, I just think that challenging the text book views are a good thing now and then.

By the way' date=' is the book you referred to "Poker Tournament Formula"? [/quote'] No, surprisingly its a book I would have never looked at but I read a good review on Andy Ward's blog so decided to invest. It's "The Fult Tilt Poker Strategy Guide". I, maybe like you, was thinking 'WTF it's a poker site sponsored beginners guide' but no it is a very insightful guide for advanced play written by a lot of the FT pro's, I will write a full review when I get chance :ok