20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2

[GaF]

[GaF]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2

2 PL'rs flopped monsters here - were they right to slow play as they did?

Ok - am I barking up the wrong tree with this approach? I think it's good, interesting and educational (not to watch what I'm doing, but the discussion I was hoping would follow some hands, and errors I'm sure I made). Does the silence mean you agree with my comments, but don't want to criticise the play of other PL'rs? (I'm not intending to hold back - with anyone and dont expect others to with my play - we all played this knowing it was being recorded and would be disected afterwards - I take that to mean all PL participants want honest feedback....) Does it mean you disagree but dont want to say? (I'm looking to hear and understand alternative opinions here!!) Does it mean you dont care and you think the play on these hands is boring and are waiting for something more juicy later on? The entire video has uploaded onto Veoh on my profile if anyone wants to look ;) If the whole video goes up, will YOU bother watching the whole thing (1 hr 10 minutes I think :loon) or is it better to do it this way, level by level? Talk to me people!!!

[daftpegasus]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2 I think that flopping the monster in those hands is always likely to make people slow play it. You want to maximise the winnings and often find people checking the flop and min raising the turn. The actions on the river are dependant upon how the opponents have played the hand to that point. In terms of your play I would only question the limp with AJs in the SB. Yes, you're out of position but you have a tight image to that point and it's a decent hand. I'd suggest raising about 3x BB with this hand. You may well have got rid of the BB in that situation and, I believe, also PL Jones would not have played his 93s, and therefore not had the chance to hit his perfect flop. Having seen the flop I think your post flop play was fine - there's no need to bluff at a pot of that size. I also wonder how many others would fold the KJo in that situation. I probably would have, but I'm sure there's a lot of PL'ers would would be raising or limping in early position with that hand.

[Nade]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2 Slow play is the only way to encourage more action, if you're certain you have the nuts like a FH then it makes sense to let others draw on their straights or flushes i think. Re. DaftPegasus' thought about the KJo fold. Up until recently i would have definitely limped with it, but as i've worked more on my all round tournament play i tend to just fold these hands in these positions early in the tournaments as there's generally little to gain in terms of size of pots but a lot to lose imo, i can't talk for GaF though... And yes, doing it in each level is better as it's easier to analyse the plays then trawling through one big video.

[GaF]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2

it makes sense to let others draw on their straights or flushes i think.

Or should you bet at a level where they are priced in to draw for their straights and flushes?

[Nade]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2

Or should you bet at a level where they are priced in to draw for their straights and flushes?

You can do, as long as it's well within range of the odds otherwise people will probably fold a draw which might seem a bit expensive early in a tournament but whether people might think that or not i'm not sure tbh. Later in tournament when there are placings at stake then i think it's better to put bigger bets in, but still within the odds as people will be wanting to accumulate a large amount of chips at that stage, but both thoughts are well open to discussion though.

[GaF]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2

In terms of your play I would only question the limp with AJs in the SB. Yes, you're out of position but you have a tight image to that point and it's a decent hand. I'd suggest raising about 3x BB with this hand. You may well have got rid of the BB in that situation and, I believe, also PL Jones would not have played his 93s, and therefore not had the chance to hit his perfect flop.

It's the kind of hand that only gets me into trouble though - An Ace comes, and it costs to find out where I am. A 4 flush comes and it costs me to draw. A Jack high flop comes and it gets tough (out of position) when an overcard comes on the turn or river and I'm out of position, I dont know where I am again.... I do accept that it's exceptionally tight to fold though .... would anyone else have folded?

[GaF]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2 With the monsters, I can agree with checking the flop, but if you dont get any action by the turn I think you then HAVE to be betting

[Nade]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2

With the monsters' date=' I can agree with checking the flop, but if you dont get any action by the turn I think you then HAVE to be betting[/quote'] I agree as you said earlier once the river comes people know exactly where they are in terms of their own hand and so will probably take less of a gamble on a big bet if they don't have a strong hand anyway, especially with a paired board imo. By betting the turn you increase the pot and if everyone folds then so be it but most likely you'll get at least one caller and maybe another call on the river, if you don't sense any strength from the opposition on the turn then it's probably just worth firing a value bet at the river to accumulate a few more chips and in rare circumstances someone might see this as weakness and come over the top with a bluff so you can also cash in that way. Or do you think a solid bet on the river in this situation would gain most rewards in the long run?

[BAM]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2 I know how it ends, so I cannot comment, I dont want to spoil it for anyone;)

[GaF]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2

I know how it ends' date=' so I cannot comment, I dont want to spoil it for anyone;)[/quote'] The end result doesn't change what the right decision was in any case, you just got lucky :tongue2 Your comments are welcome :ok

[GaF]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2

Or do you think a solid bet on the river in this situation would gain most rewards in the long run?

In this situation my goal is not just to win a big pot, I want to stack someone ..... for that to happen they need a reasonable hand (and yes, maybe a little time to catch up), but it also means I need to build the pot before we get to the river - if someone's not strong enough to call a bet on the turn, then they probably wouldn't call a bet on the river either. I'm happy to show some strength on the turn ..... even for the occasions where it costs me a small bet on the river where they take a stab at the pot.....I think it will win me more when I get action in a larger pot

[daftpegasus]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2

It's the kind of hand that only gets me into trouble though - An Ace comes, and it costs to find out where I am. A 4 flush comes and it costs me to draw. A Jack high flop comes and it gets tough (out of position) when an overcard comes on the turn or river and I'm out of position, I dont know where I am again.... I do accept that it's exceptionally tight to fold though .... would anyone else have folded?

That type of hand can get you into trouble but AJs is up there amongst some of the best starting hands to have. It isn't that different to AK. The other part of this hand is the play. PLJones has limped into the pot from mid position. In this game that indictaes he does not have a monster, rather a hand he'd like to see a flop with. Everyone else folds to you. You are out of position, but, also in the strongest position because you are first to act after the flop. A show of strength preflop against a limper followed, if necessary, by a continuation bet post flop showing that you've either hit on the flop or have monster hole cards, will tell him to be very careful. If he too has a big hand, you'll know from his betting and be able to get away from it. With your TAG style a raise pre flop followed by a bet post flop I suspect will have most PL'ers believing that you have a hand, particularly in the early stages of a tournament. One thing I've noticed more recently is when people limp into the pot, and the SB puts in a large raise, the number of those limpers that fold is often all of them. I guess this is because most limpers usually only have a hand where they want to see a cheap flop, but also the early limpers are concerned by possible calls from the late limpers. The late limpers have seen everyone else fold and therefore may be more prone to folding themselves? I don't know the answers but I might test the theory next time I'm in that situation.

[GaF]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2

It isn't that different to AK.

Have to absolutely disagree!! I view AQ as significantly weaker than AK, and AJ I view as an order of magnitude weaker than AK - AJ isn't that strong a hand, especially 10 handed....

in the strongest position because you are first to act after the flop

Have to disagree again - to act first after the flop is a massive disadvantage - you have no information on your opponents and are betting blind..... I agree, I COULD raise pre flop and look to take it down ..... but I feel I'm risking between 150 and 200 chips, plus whatever it costs to find out where I am out of position, to win 125 chips - I "only" have 1400 odd chips in my stack - that's a significant part of it - is the "risk to reward" ratio right?

[GaF]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2

One thing I've noticed more recently is when people limp into the pot, and the SB puts in a large raise, the number of those limpers that fold is often all of them. I guess this is because most limpers usually only have a hand where they want to see a cheap flop, but also the early limpers are concerned by possible calls from the late limpers. The late limpers have seen everyone else fold and therefore may be more prone to folding themselves? I don't know the answers but I might test the theory next time I'm in that situation.

You'll see later on I make some massive moves from the SB in just this situation (without the cards) - it's at a time though when I'm all in pre flop, so not handicapped by position post flop.

[BAM]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2

The end result doesn't change what the right decision was in any case, you just got lucky :tongue2 Your comments are welcome :ok

Nothing much to add on the first two levels, except I'm with DP I would have not limped with the AJ. I would have raised 4x I view a raise from the SB as strong just for the reasons you have described GaF and in my experience they would have folded. The game from my point of view is not going to plan. I see you are playing quite tight, whereas, I usually like to accumualte chips early on. I made the play with the QJ and it didn't work out but I would not have done that against a larger stack. I'm very much wounded but I am just waiting now to pick my moments to get some chips back and as you will see in a bit I have already selected my victim to target. At this point in a SNG I am still very confident of winning, my first plan to accumalate has gone out of the window. I now have to adjust my strategy and start concentrating hard on the victim and the position to do it.

[daftpegasus]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2

Have to absolutely disagree!! I view AQ as significantly weaker than AK' date=' and AJ I view as an order of magnitude weaker than AK - AJ isn't that strong a hand, especially 10 handed....[/quote'] That's the great thing about poker - differing opinions. It would be interesting to look at the relative strengths of AJs v AKo against any 2 random cards. Because of the suited aspect I suspect that AJs is not that far behind. Being the first to act is a disadvantage due to a lack of information but equally it is an advantage in that you can dictate the play. I'd rather take a stab at the pot as the first player to bet than try to reraise from late position.

[daftpegasus]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2

as you will see in a bit I have already selected my victim to target. At this point in a SNG I am still very confident of winning, my first plan to accumalate has gone out of the window. I now have to adjust my strategy and start concentrating hard on the victim and the position to do it.

Interesting. Will you explain why you selected that victim (after we've seen the hands of course)? I tend to target situations not people, so I think I could learn a lot from this. I think it must be easier playing live to target people, but imagine it's quite difficult online.

[GaF]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2 Yeah, I'm interested in this targeting of a player too - not something I do, but maybe I should more :unsure You've already decided who to target at this stage? Can I ask who, and why? (and to be educational, you NEED to be frank - if it's another PL'r I don't want you to "hold back" as I said earlier - if it's negative, but constructive, you could be doing them a HUGE favour...)

[GaF]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2

I find it interesting that you're not willing to risk approx 25% of your stack from the SB with AJs but you are willing to risk your entire stack later on without the cards. Obviously I don't know what the blind structure and tournament situation is when this happens so I wait with interest....

It's a question of rewards (v risk) - I probably wasn't desperate later on, but thought I could get away with it..... At this stage, if I have 1500 chips, then going down to 1150 odd is more painful than going up to 1650 odd is pleasurable.... Later on, I'll be risking more, but to win more (maybe 1500 or more in blinds). To win 1500 chips, there are 2 ways of doing it - I can steal 1 set of blinds when they are 500/1000 or I can steal 10 sets of blinds when they are 50/100... I think I have more chance with 1 steal than 10 (ok AJs isn't exactly a steal, but it is a risky starting hand...)

[GaF]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2 Damo's cards added to the table in Post 1 :ok

[BAM]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2 Its not a black art guys, I just observe every hand (this is why I dont multibate too much) and put myself in their position and think what I would do regardless of cards. Unfortunately all the plers were very strong players, if I was going to get chips off anyone it was Karl as we have history and I know he would play against me. Jolly and BA scare me and GaF and Damo are great players but a little predictable :$. The two players I isolated as weak were flva and spilko, if you watch their play they both played erratic, there were times in unraised pots they had great position and folded and times where they over protected their blinds and lost money and other times they went fishing folded to a river bet and lost chips. I was targeting flva but spilko got in the way first (as I hit some hands) but later on in the game I specifically target flva.

[GaF]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2

GaF and Damo are great players but a little predictable :$.

Whenever I try and do anything too different I end up losing a lot of chips :$ Which is why I'll be looking at others hands during these vids with interest :ok

[daftpegasus]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2

Whenever I try and do anything too different I end up losing a lot of chips :$

I think we all do that. I had a terrible run earlier this year when I tried to loosen up and play more starting hands. I was terrible and bummed out of every tournament early on. I then tightened up and played my more natural game and went on a great run. However that doesn't make it wrong not to try something different. Whenever we play in PL tournament's you know what some people are going to be like as soon as you sit down at the table. There are PL'ers who I hate to be sat next to because of the situations they play. Equally I'm sure they know my play meaning that again I will have to try to learn to alter my style - only by learning to do this do I believe that I'll improve my current play.

[robilaruk]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2

Yeah, I'm interested in this targeting of a player too - not something I do, but maybe I should more :unsure You've already decided who to target at this stage? Can I ask who, and why? (and to be educational, you NEED to be frank - if it's another PL'r I don't want you to "hold back" as I said earlier - if it's negative, but constructive, you could be doing them a HUGE favour...)

I agree with this otherwise why be here?? - :clapwell said GaF:clap I am not sure you can target anyone in a STT unless you have really good notes on them, the blind structure doesn't seem to allow it and my feeling is that because of the short nature of the game (compared to an MTT) and that lots of folks multi-table, they are prepared to get involved as time and $/hour is the not the same pressure as an MTT is (folks will wait in an MTT as they see it as a marathon rather than a sprint) - just my thoughts. FYI I tend to target you in the MTT's as you generally play tight for the first few levels and I have a feel for when you are in your 'red zone' - I tend to play the same against Andy (Val) and Sam (P-Lady) for the same reason . I can tell you who I rarely target (though it has been a while since I have played against him) and thats Sharp1ne - too unpredictable for me to play consistently well against - I also think TQM is hard to target for me, as he tends to play back a lot when i raise him as does Phil221 (there you go all my secrets in the open!). Damo

[robilaruk]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2

GaF and Damo are great players but a little predictable :$.

thanks:) and why :$ - need to know mate as I am getting right royally rodgered at the $22's & $33's at the mo and am thinking of dropping down to the $11's again. I would agree I though spilko was way over protective of his BB - interestingly I didn't notice flva much, I just saw him splashing around a bit. Damo

[robilaruk]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2

Whenever I try and do anything too different I end up losing a lot of chips :$ Which is why I'll be looking at others hands during these vids with interest :ok

there is nothing wrong with ABC poker as long as you don't mind shoving crap when you are being blinded out and can take the fact that the big stack will call you with more crap - thats the hardest thing to accept in poker, once you have cracked the 'I don't care anymore if I do get called and can happily shove this rubbish mentality' then the game is easier (esp if you multi-table) Damo

[robilaruk]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2 Hand 8, with position I would raise the turn as there is a flush and straight draw out there as well as 2 jacks and just hope that the 'villian' has something to call with against the flopped FH Damo

[robilaruk]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2 Hand 12 against 1 limpers I am making it 250 to go with AJs re the flopped FH - I am betting 100 into the 150 pot because of the two hearts and because i want to build a pot worth fighting over as Jones checked you must raise the turn after duende bets - there are now 2 flush draws out there so get some more chips in the middle and hope he calls and hits - say a raise to 200 river, well he ain't calling for 50 with nowt, so at least make it 125 or so, or better yet bet 136 or something similar, the odd amount just might make him curious enough to call with his 7 Damo

[Nade]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 2 Is there a part 3? :unsure