20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 1

[GaF]

[GaF]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 1 Damo's cards added to the table (I haven't watched it back yet in relation to his cards)

[robilaruk]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 1 The last hand - I am not happy with my bet on the end there - I should either make it about 350 or just check fold - the 220 was just too weak Lesson learnt! Damo

[GaF]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 1 Actually, hand 8 takes me back to some comments from you before where you spoke about having the pot odds to call from the small blind with any 2 .... which is what you did here - it cost you 15 chips to get in, you flopped bottom pair against 3 opponents ..... you bet 90, then 150, then 220 ....... I'm afraid I don't like any of it .... that cheap look at a flop ended up costing you another 460 chips - for me the issue is far greater than the bet on the end :unsure

[robilaruk]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 1

Actually' date=' hand 8 takes me back to some comments from you before where you spoke about having the pot odds to call from the small blind with any 2 .... which is what you did here - it cost you 15 chips to get in, you glopped bottom pair against 3 opponents ..... you bet 90, then 150, then 220 ....... I'm afraid I don't like any of it .... that cheap look at a flop ended up costing you another 460 chips - for me the issue is far greater than the bet on the end :unsure[/quote'] I agree if you can't play post flop - I still think making up the sb is a value proposition - folks tend to limp any 2 brodway and any Ax, so if you flop any part of the flop against a couple of opponents you are 2 times out of three ahead with a rag flop - I also find that they will call a 2/3 pot bet on the flop hoping to hit and then fold on the turn if a blank comes - I just played this crap on the river - if you look I only got one caller on my flop bet, that's why value betting that flop with bottom pair makes sense to me - what did the other open player limp? probably A6 or something similar and the BB got in for free - its just finding the fine line between betting bottom pair and letting it go - I should have let it go on the river after I missed my flush draw turn and no improvement with bottom pair - I would have saved myself 220 in chips, that is what I am unhappy with, not the previous 255. just my thoughts Damo

[GaF]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 1

so if you flop any part of the flop against a couple of opponents you are 2 times out of three ahead with a rag flop

Against 3 opponents (which you had here) I would expect at least one of them to have hit something on the flop....

[robilaruk]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 1

Against 3 opponents (which you had here) I would expect at least one of them to have hit something on the flop....

you miss the flop about 2/3rds of the time, so any pair in a limped pot has (IMHO) got to be worth betting (and if you run into trips you will get away from it) - I didn't get any stiff resistance, so i put him on two overcards or Ax - having bet, can I stop betting the turn when a 4-flush card appears for me as well? if I don't bet now and he bets 300 I am probably folding the best hand/draw, my turn bet is a blocker to see the river. If he has trips at this point he will raise to force out the drawing hand - to not raise would be silly, so when he calls he still has a draw or has something weak that he might just check on the end - the river card fills a few draws and thats why i should have checked folded, not bet folded. If you are going to limp your SB and then fold when you hit the flop and turn then it is best to fold PF and not get involved - by limping you are committing yuourself to winning the pot at some point (or at least attempting to). A great player would know when to attempt to take the pot down and when to check/fold - I am only an average player and made a mistake at the end. YMMV of course but I have started to play more of a small ball game rather than my previous TAG/Rock game as I find winning a couple of hundred chips early helps to either limp a few hands with cards in position or sit out a round or two when you have shite. Damo

[GaF]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 1

you miss the flop about 2/3rds of the time' date='[/quote'] One player will miss the pot 66% of the time. All Three players will all miss the pot .66 x .66 x .66 = 28% of the time. There is a 72% or so chance that at least one of your opponents has hit some of the flop....

[robilaruk]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 1

One player will miss the pot 66% of the time. All Three players will all miss the pot .66 x .66 x .66 = 28% of the time. There is a 72% or so chance that at least one of your opponents has hit some of the flop....

and that something might be something they will fold - I just think with that uncoordinated flop that I am probably ahead - no straight or flush draws or particular high cards, thats why I lead out, if it had come KJ4 or 3 suited with the 4 I would check fold - its about picking your spots, a great player picks better spots than an average one. I am happy with everything but the river:ok - this is a really good thread and has got me thinking :) Thanks GaF Damo

[Nade]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 1 That last hand is an interesting one. Personally i would have limped as you did pre flop as there were a couple of other limpers, but if there were none others or just one other in the hand i'd chuck it. When limping with this kind of hand though i think to myself before the flop has come out i'm hoping to hit 2 pair, or trips, or a flush/draw, a straight/draw and definitely not just 1 pair as there's no real hope for one small pair against multiple opponents. As you're also out of position in the blinds it's essential to have a strong hand to bet out with. If you check the flop you may see a free card in the turn which then might be a reasonable place to raise with the pair and flush draw. Sorry Damo, but i'll have to agree with GaF on this hand. I have to say also that the time into the tournament would also have a bearing on the play. As it's early in the STT there's no real need to go wild and attempt to take down pots in early position with weak hands, just wait for good opportunities early on and stay solid imo.

[jolly67]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 1 here's my hole cards for the first twelve hands: 1. Jh Qd 7. 9h Ah 2. Kd 6d 8. 2s Qh 3. As 4d 9. 10h 4h 4. 8h 8d 10. Ac 5d 5. 5d 9h 11. 3d Ah 6. 6d 9c 12. Ah 8d GaF, you mentioned in another thread that the hand history should be on your HD all in the one file, how do I access this? (played on Virgin) I've just copied these down from HH in Support.

[Nade]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 1

GaF, you mentioned in another thread that the hand history should be on your HD all in the one file, how do I access this? (played on Virgin) I've just copied these down from HH in Support.

Mine is under a folder called 'virgin poker' which is in another folder called 'poker'. I don't know if i created the folder 'poker' myself as the virgin folder is the only folder in it, but it will be in 'virgin poker'. Go through 'my computer' then 'local disk' - 'program files' then there should be a folder named 'virgin poker' or maybe 'poker' then 'history'. Failing this the simpler way would be to the start menu and go to search all files and folders and search for 'virgin poker' and the history file should ifle should be in there. :ok Hope that helps...

[jolly67]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 1 :ok Nade, found it , I'll have a proper look at it tomorrow I've got to :zzz

[GaF]

[robilaruk]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 1 there is no point limping if you are not prepared to bet if you hit a hand, by calling into a pot you are saying I want to win it. You can only win it by betting at it (unless it is checked down to the river) - I think limping and then not betting when you hit a rag flop is worse than betting out and losing. If I check that floip and the villian bets 60 - now what? am I calling? in poker it is always best to put your opponenets to the test not the other way around. I prefer to lead when I have something and not check call/check fold, thats just the way I generally play (but am listening to you all and thinking!! :ok) Wild? I made a 2/3 pot bet and a half pot bet - not too wild, the bet on the end was extremely poor though - wild would have been to call his raise Damo

That last hand is an interesting one. Personally i would have limped as you did pre flop as there were a couple of other limpers' date=' but if there were none others or just one other in the hand i'd chuck it. When limping with this kind of hand though i think to myself before the flop has come out i'm hoping to hit 2 pair, or trips, or a flush/draw, a straight/draw and definitely not just 1 pair as there's no real hope for one small pair against multiple opponents. As you're also out of position in the blinds it's essential to have a strong hand to bet out with. If you check the flop you may see a free card in the turn which then might be a reasonable place to raise with the pair and flush draw. Sorry Damo, but i'll have to agree with GaF on this hand. I have to say also that the time into the tournament would also have a bearing on the play. As it's early in the STT there's no real need to go wild and attempt to take down pots in early position with weak hands, just wait for good opportunities early on and stay solid imo.[/quote']

[GaF]

[Nade]

Re: 20070806 Virgin PL STT - Level 1

there is no point limping if you are not prepared to bet if you hit a hand' date= by calling into a pot you are saying I want to win it. You can only win it by betting at it (unless it is checked down to the river) - I think limping and then not betting when you hit a rag flop is worse than betting out and losing. If I check that floip and the villian bets 60 - now what? am I calling? in poker it is always best to put your opponenets to the test not the other way around. I prefer to lead when I have something and not check call/check fold, thats just the way I generally play (but am listening to you all and thinking!! :ok) Wild? I made a 2/3 pot bet and a half pot bet - not too wild, the bet on the end was extremely poor though - wild would have been to call his raise Damo

As i said there's no need to get committed to a hand like that so early in the tournament. Your philosophy that if you hit any part of the hand you should bet is extremely dangerous as you're committing yourself to the hand before you've assessed the full situation imo. That hand is a perfect example of this and instead i like to only flop extremely strong drawing hands or 2pairs with small suited connectors otherwise i'm really not interested and will toss away a pair at the drop of a hat. If that hand was HU then there's no harm betting at it as the maths say it's unlikely you're both going to hit the flop HU, however there were multiple opponents in this hand so it screams danger. Ultimately i think you were a bit stubborn on this hand, i'm not sure why, but you were determined to win the hand regardless of what you're opponents could have and it cost. I don't think i'll be convinced otherwise on this one i'm afraid, it's just my opinion and we all do what we like anyways :ok.