2+2 $110 Turbo STT

[GaF]

Thought this was interesting, from the 2+2 magazine.....http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue30/Ferguson0607.html

This is a full hand history from a $110+9 Turbo SNG on Full Tilt Poker that I recently played. I have included detailed commentary about key decisions I made. There were no regulars at the table. So, none of the plays were made with a specific read based on my experience with these players. Blinds are 15/30, with starting stacks of 1500. Hand 1: Open folded A8o UTG+1 Hand 2: Folded A5o UTG Hand 3: I was in the big blind for this hand with 9c 9h. Tikikid (1,545) minraised to 60 from MP and I just called. The flop was Qh 3h 7s. I checked, he bet 85 into a 135 pot, and I folded. Commentary: After an unknown player in MP minraised, I just called out of the BB, hoping to flop either a set or an overpair. 99 is moderately difficult to play because there are often overcards on the flop, as there were here. When the villain bets 2/3^rd pot, it’s a pretty easy fold. You really can’t call here because a Ten, Jack, King, or Ace will come on the turn or the river between 56% and 64% of the time, depending on how many of those cards the villain has. When the board has 2 overcards, it will be even more difficult to call, and you will potentially be calling larger bets with no idea where you are in the hand. Hand 4: Folded A5o from the SB after an MP minraise and a cold call from the button. Blinds are 20/40 Hand 5: Folded Q6o from the Button after an UTG+1 raise to 140 and a MP cold call. Blinds are 25/50 Hand 6: Folded Q8o from the CO after a CO+1 open raise to 150. Hand 7: Open folded Q8o from the HJ. 8 players remaining. UTG (1,410) UTG+1 (2,970) MP1 (1,470) z32fanatic (1,425) CO (1,625) Button (1,435) SB (1,545) BB (1,620) Hand 8: Open folded T5o from MP2. Hand 9: Open folded J6s from MP1. Hand 10: Open folded 98o from UTG+1 Hand 11: Folded 74o from UTG Blinds are 30/60 Hand 12: I was in the big blind with Jd 2d for this hand. Waabbe (1,420) open completed and I checked. The flop was Ah Td 7h and we both checked. The turn was a Jh. He checked, I bet min 60, and he folded. Commentary: Checking after the complete from the SB is very standard here with a trash hand like J2s. I like to play very straightforward against unknown players, as this opponent was, and not get too fancy by raising. On the flop we completely missed, so we check. On the turn we clearly have the best hand, but our 2^nd pair is rather vulnerable, so we bet minimum to charge the flush draws, as well as the many straight draws that are out there. We are instantly folding to a check raise. Hand 13: Folded K7o from the SB after a 3x raise by the Button. Hand 14: Open folded 87s from the Button. Commentary: Easy fold. Many people would open raise here from the button with 87s, but it’s really a marginal play. While you would definitely raise 87s in a cash game with an appropriate stack size, we now only have 24BBs, so getting reraised preflop, or check-raised when we continuation bet most flops would be very painful. Just fold. Hand 15: Folded KQo from the CO after a 3x raise by MP. Hand 16: Open folded 64o from MP2. Blinds are 40/80 Hand 17: Open folded T9s from MP1. Hand 18: Open folded 76o from UTG+1. Hand 19: Folded Q3o from UTG. Hand 20: Folded 94o from the BB after an LP 3x open raise. Hand 21: In this hand I was dealt 6h 6c in the small blind. Supadphat (1,535) minraised in MP and I folded. Commentary: Unfortunately we don’t have odds for set value, and we’re out of position. Also, the villain will likely bet most flops, which we will have to fold. We don’t really know where we are here, so we just fold and wait for a clearer spot. If I had a hand like 88+, AQ I would shove over the top, but 66 seems to be too weak a holding for that. I expect the villain to call with 77 or 88, because I’m going to assume that he is not a strong player, as I always do when I am readless. Blinds are 50/100 Hand 22: Folded KTo from the Button after a 3x MP raise. Hand 23: In this hand I was dealt As Kd in MP. Honx2 (2,860) raised to 300 (3x the big blind) UTG+2 and Waabbe (1,420) called. I shoved 1,335 total, honx2 folded, and Waabbe called with Kh Qs. The board came 7s 5s 5h 3s 9s, giving me the nut flush, and I had 3,120 chips after this hand. Commentary: After the raise to 300 and the cold call, we have a very standard shove with AKo here. I would probably fold AQo here under normal circumstances, and shove 99+, AK. 88 is close, but as you can see in this hand, people love to call. This hand is a really good example of why waiting for better spots in SNGs is a profitable play. People are willing to call off 13BB when they are ahead of literally 0% of your range, so let them. Don’t give them an opportunity to luckbox their way into being ahead in situations. This is also a good example of the play of a typical SNG opponent. He has KQ but won’t fold preflop even though he is clearly behind. While it may sound cliché, we folded 66 earlier in a marginal spot because we knew we would be able to get it later in a much more favorable situation. This is also an example of some common mistakes that are made by players transitioning from multi table tournaments to SNGs. By that I mean that MTT players often times try to resteal in SNGs too often. In this situation, they may come over the top in my position with hands like ATs, QJs, JTs, because they only have 13bbs and feel that they have to “make a move.†While this works well in MTTs, the biggest difference is that a player can simply load up another SNG within seconds if he makes a bad call, whereas it could take hours to get to the same situation in an MTT. I’ve found that this leads players to be all around looser in SNGs, and we must adjust accordingly. I was not surprised to see my opponent call with KQ, which is why we must simply wait until we are very likely to be ahead, and get as much money in as possible. Hand 24: Folded 75o from the HJ after an MP limped all in for 85 chips. 7 players remaining. UTG (2,560) z32fanatic (3,120) HJ (1,660) CO (1,770) Button (1,500) SB (1,555) BB (1,335) Hand 25: Open raised AJo from MP1 and took the blinds. Commentary: We’re the chip leader now, and AJo is a standard raise when we have a big stack here UTG+1 7 way. We are probably folding to anyone’s shove since they all have 13BBs or more. Hand 26: Folded T8s UTG. Blinds are 60/120 Hand 27: Folded 96o from the BB after an LP 3x raise. Hand 28: This hand I was dealt Q2s in the small blind with 3,150 chips, bb120 and open folded because the big blind had 1,660 chips. Commentary: We can’t shove here because the BB has too many chips for it to be profitable, and completing out of position does not seem like a great play. Just fold. Hand 29: Open raised 44 from the button to 3xBB and took the blinds. Commentary: Easy raise from the button with 44 here. We are still the chip leader and want to pick up chips where we can. We’re probably folding to a shove by the SB or BB. Hand 30: Open folded K3o from the CO. Blinds are 80/160 Hand 31: Open folded 84o from the HJ/MP1. Hand 32: Open folded 63s from UTG+1. Hand 33: Folded 63o UTG. Hand 34: Folded A4s from the BB after a CO minraise. We really don’t want to play this hand out of position, especially because we will so rarely hit a good flop, and even then we can’t be sure we’re ahead. In my experiences playing SNGs, I’ve found that the open minraise from LP includes most Aces that have us crushed. If we play a big pot with this hand, we’re likely going to be behind, and our opponent has position on us, which will allow him to play well in most situations. Hand 35: Folded 52o from the SB after a CO minraise. Blinds are 100/200 Hand 36: Open folded 73o from the Button. Hand 37: This hand I was dealt Ad Js (3,030) in MP. Supadphat (2,225) raised UTG to 600 (3x big blind) and I folded. Commentary: Easy fold. AJo is behind his opening range here. If he limped I would probably shove, but shoving over an UTG 3x raise with AJo is pretty bad without a really solid read. Hand 38: Open folded 65o from the HJ/MP1. Hand 39: Open folded 92o from UTG+1 Hand 40: Folded 73o UTG. Hand 41: Got a walk in the BB with J5s. Blinds are 120/240 Hand 42: Folded J8o from the SB after a 6x UTG shove. Hand 43: This hand I was dealt Qs 8s on the button, with big blind 240. I open shoved, because the small blind had 1,400 chips and the big blind had 1,650 chips. Both blinds folded and I won the 360 chip pot. Commentary: We’re getting closer to the fun part of the SNG now. The blinds have ~6 and 7BB respectively, and we have a tight image. Q8s is a +EV push here, because they don’t call enough. Even if they are calling with A2+, 55+, KJ+, it is still a profitable push. Also, I don’t think they will necessarily call you with A2 or KJ. The more hands they fold, the more hands you can profitably push here. Q8o is probably a fold, but because we are suited, it adds a lot to our hand against a range of hands. I’m probably pushing most suited connectors here. Hand 44: Folded K6s from the CO after an MP raise. Hand 45: Open folded 74s from HJ/MP1. Seat 1: BB (1,125) Seat 2: UTG (2,670) Seat 4: z32fanatic (3,370) Seat 5: Hijack (1,280) Seat 6: CO (2,700) Seat 7: Button (1,120) Seat 9: SB (1,235) Hand 46: Open Folded A4s from UTG+1 UTG+1 7 handed with A4s is an easy fold, especially with the stack sizes. We have 14bbs here, and our hand is too weak to shove, especially when the CO has >10bbs. We could raise, but with 5 people behind us, A4s is probably behind, and the stack sizes are such that it’s unlikely the 3 opponents with 5bbs will fold a better hand. Hand 47: Folded 98o UTG. Blinds are 150/300 Hand 48: Folded 53o from the BB after a 5x UTG shove. Hand 49: This hand I was dealt J5o in the SB (3,070) and open shoved with the big blind 300. The big blind had 1,280 chips. Commentary: Easy shove. The villain here needs to be calling looser than 22+,A2+,K2+,Q2+,J2+,T4o+,T2s+,96o+,94s+,87o,85s+,75s+ in order for J5 to be a fold here, and he won’t call that loose ever. Hand 50: Folded 87o from the Button after a 5x MP shove. Hand 51: Open folded 86s from the CO. Hand 52: Open folded K4o from the HJ/MP1. Hand 53: Open folded 32o from UTG+1. Hand 54: Folded 95o from UTG. Blinds are 200/400 Hand 55: This hand I was dealt Ah 9c (3,370) in the big blind. Bvelez123 (610) went all in UTG with big blind 400. Everyone folded and I called from the big blind. He showed Js Ts and the board came Kc 6s 3c 3d Kd and I was up to 4,180 chips. Commentary: Super easy call here. We are calling 210 into a 1420 pot, so we’re getting almost 6-1. We literally cannot fold any 2 cards here, and if Full Tilt messed up and only dealt me 1 card, and it was a 2, I would still call. 6 players remaining. UTG (1,790) UTG+1 (1,925) CO (1,800) Button (1,780) z32fanatic (4,180) BB (2,025) Hand 56: Folded Q6o from the SB after a 3x MP raise. Hand 57: Folded 62o from the Button after a 5x UTG shove. Hand 58: Open folded J8o from the CO. Hand 59: Open folded K2o from UTG+1/HJ. Hand 60: Folded 75o from UTG. Hand 61: In this hand I was dealt 8c 4s in the big blind. Tikikid (1,190) shoved from UTG+1 with big blind 400. Everyone folded to me and I called. He showed Qc Qs and the board came Th 8h Ah 5s Js, which took me down to 2,790 chips. Commentary: Easy call. Again we’re getting over 2-1 on our call, and we have a 3-gapper. This villain is certainly pushing a wide range of hands because he has just under 3BBs. If I had a hand like 92o I might fold here, but 84o is profitable against his range. This hand is only a fold if he is pushing tighter than 22+,A2+,K2+,Q2s+,Q6o+,J7s+,J9o+,T8s+,98s, which I don’t think he is. Blinds are 250/500 Hand 62: Folded 85o from the SB after a 3x CO shove. The difference between this hand and the previous hand is that we were closing out the action on the last hand. While it is unlikely, it is still possible for the BB to wake up with a hand, which would be very, very bad for us. You really can’t just call; you must either fold or push. While pushing may be slightly +EV because of the pot odds, it is –EV because it will appear to the others that you are shoving with 85o, which is not good. I have shoved in this situation many times, and people always seem to open their calling ranges after I shove. This would be very bad because we don’t want players to open up their calling ranges, as we expect to be stealing the blinds quite frequently at this point. Hand 63: Shoved 2,540 chips with big blind 500 from the Button with KTo. Commentary: Easy shove. Here we’re dealt KTo on the button with only 5BBs. This shove is +EV against all ranges of calling hands, meaning that no matter what range of hands they call with, we make money in the long run. If they call tighter, we make money by stealing the blinds a large amount of the time. If they call a lot, we make money because we are ahead of their range. This situation is called “unexploitable†because we make money no matter what their range is. Hand 64: Folded T5o from the CO after a 3x MP shove. Hand 65: Open folded Q7o from UTG+1/HJ. Hand 66: Folded T6o from UTG. Hand 67: Folded J2s from the BB after a 3x SB raise. Hand 68: In this hand I was dealt As Td (2,790) in the small blind. Supadphat (1,800) shoved from UTG+1 and I shoved. He showed 9c 9d and the board came Ks Tc 8c 4d Qd and I was up to 5,090 chips. Commentary: Easy shove. The villain pushed 3BBs, and we have a very good hand in ATo. He has to be shoving tighter than 55+,A9o+,A7s+,KJo+,KTs+,QJs for this to be a fold, and he is DEFINITELY shoving wider than that range. We were lucky to win this flip, and I was very surprised to see him turn up a real hand, rather than a Q9o type hand. 5 players remaining. UTG (1,900) CO (2,530) z32fanatic (5,090) SB (1,400) BB (2,580) Blinds are 300/600 Hand 69: Open folded T4s from the Button. Commentary: Easy fold. With 5 people left, people are not in a bubble mentality yet so they will call us relatively loose. Also, the SB happily calls us here with a ton of hands because he would be getting great odds if we were to shove. He would only have to call 1100 into a 3400 pot, or just over 2-1. He should call at least 50% of hands if we shoved, and showing down T4s isn’t something we want to do just yet. Hand 70: Folded A7o from UTG+1/CO after a 3x UTG raise. Hand 71: Folded K5o from UTG. 4 players remaining. UTG/CO (1,680) Button (1,000) SB (5,730) z32fanatic (5,090) Hand 72: I get a walk in the BB. Hand 73: Folded Q3o from the SB after a 2x UTG shove. Hand 74: In this hand I was dealt 7c 4h and shoved from the button (5,090) with big blind 600. The small blind Tikikid had 680 chips, and the big blind blindsqirrel had 2,300 chips. Tikikid called with 3d 3c and blindsqirrel called with Qc Ts. The board came Td 9d 8h Jh Jd and I was down to 2,790 chips. Commentary: As I mentioned in the previous hand, we’re shoving really wide here. Even if the SB calls 100% of the time, which he should but once in a while will fold if he’s too tight, we are basically calling 680 into a 1960 chip pot, or almost 2-1. Now, in this hand, the BB called with QTo, which is actually decent because he has to finish last to bubble, but they almost never call here with any holding, and I was shocked to see him turn up QTo. In hindsight this is a rather marginal situation, but oh well. I think people would be surprised at how often the SB folds here when he shouldn’t. I would say he folds around 1 out of 10 times, which is huge because if he folds, the BB is forced to fold his hand 99% of the time. 3 players remaining. Z32fanatic (2,790) SB (5,280) BB (5,430) Blinds are 400/800 Hand 75: In this hand I was dealt Kh Jc (2,790) with big blind 600 and shoved from the button. The small blind and big blind both folded and I won the blinds. Commentary: We’re in the money now, and get KJo with 3.5BB which is an unexploitable shove. Hand 76: Folded 53o from the BB after a SB minraise. Hand 77: Open shoved K4o (3,190) with 4BBs from the SB and the BB called with A8o. The board came J834K and I sucked out. Commentary: Easy shove. K4o from the SB with only 4BB is unfoldable. z32fanatic (6,380) SB (1,690) BB (5,430) Hand 78: Folded 92o from the Button with 8BB. Hand 79: Button shoved 3BBs, I called from the BB with K7o and he showed K6s. The board came 99T24 and I won the pot with a 7 kicker. Commentary: Easy call with K7 here getting over 2-1 on the call against a desperate 3BB button push. I’d call here with basically anything. 2 players remaining. z32fanatic (9,270) BB (4,230) Hand 80: Shoved AJs from the SB heads up with 12BBs and the BB folded. SB (3,430) z32fanatic (10,070) Hand 81: Villain minraised to 1600 from the SB and I folded 73o. z32fanatic (9,270) BB (4,230) Hand 82: Shoved 44 from the SB with 12BBs, villain called with A6o and my 44 held up. Hopefully this article has given you some insight into the mind of a professional SNG player, and can help everyone improve their SNG play.

The hands that seem to have generated most interest.... Hand 21: Folding Pocket Pair to min raise from SB with relatively low blinds Hand 63: Unexploitable Play Hand 74: Shove from the button with 74o (on the Bubble)

[BAM]

Re: 2+2 $110 Turbo STT Re hand 63 - I know these guys have it in their head but is there a way or program to calculate Expected Value very quickly?

[GaF]

Re: 2+2 $110 Turbo STT Best programs are SitngoWiz or SNGEGT I think - they're basic ICM programs that give you your EV in response to a range you put your opponent on (and if you have positive ev on all hand ranges, then it's unexploitable)....

[BAM]

Re: 2+2 $110 Turbo STT

Best programs are SitngoWiz or SNGEGT I think - they're basic ICM programs that give you your EV in response to a range you put your opponent on (and if you have positive ev on all hand ranges' date=' then it's unexploitable)....[/quote'] do they track your game or do you have to input the info? ie if you label a tight player it will give a range of hands, loose more hands etc. as I am thinking time ebbing away before you make your decision

[GaF]

Re: 2+2 $110 Turbo STT All of these are for post game analysis - I'm not aware of any that work in real time..... (But they import from Hand Histories - at least SnGWiz does...)

[GaF]

Re: 2+2 $110 Turbo STT Here's an example output from a PS game I played (the 30 day trial is fully functional)

[BAM]

Re: 2+2 $110 Turbo STT

All of these are for post game analysis - I'm not aware of any that work in real time..... (But they import from Hand Histories - at least SnGWiz does...)

Thanks GaF :ok I do it myself long hand post game, maybe I should get wiz :eyes But a realtime SHAL would be very useful

[robilaruk]

Re: 2+2 $110 Turbo STT thanks for the post -I agree with 90%+ of the plays, but some are dodgy to me and I wouldn't subscribe to the 'shove mode because it is unexploitable mentality' that is often quoted to justifying shoving shite (but maybe thats why I am not a professional SNG'er!) Ta Damo

[GaF]

Re: 2+2 $110 Turbo STT

I wouldn't subscribe to the 'shove mode because it is unexploitable mentality' that is often quoted to justifying shoving shite

I'm surprised, I view you as one of the most aggressive players on PL with a short stack... If you (or players still to act) have a short stack, and you have positive EV to shove, regardless of the range your opponent will call with, then what factors should be considered that could possibly make it right not to shove? Are you talking about hand 63? Everyone folds to you on the button, where with 5 x BB you have a good blackjack hand - why wouldn't you shove? What would you do instead? limp? Fold?

[robilaruk]

Re: 2+2 $110 Turbo STT

Are you talking about hand 63? Everyone folds to you on the button, where with 5 x BB you have a good blackjack hand - why wouldn't you shove? What would you do instead? limp? Fold?

glad I suprised you :D I was talking about hand 43 with 2 shorties to go through why shove with Q8 - how is that +ev when if they call and beat you, you have lost half your stack and now only have 7/8 BB or so and are the one struggling? how about hand 21 if he had 88+ AQ+ he would shove over the top of a min raise? he has about 1500 chips and the blinds are 40/80 and there is 280 in the pot and he wants to shove? sorry I think that is a muppet play and I don't believe his shoving range is that wide, JJ+ AK+ maybe, but not 88. Then read hand 23 - that makes more sense and why i believe hand 21 game theory is BS Hand 37 - would shove if villian limped? please don't say so. Again I can't see how this is a +ev you are only getting called by a better hand here, so why shove and risk your tourny when you don't have to? hand 49 - no shove for me I don't like hand 61 Hand 63 - auto shove for me, no brainer Just a few hands I disagree with - the rest of it is good stuff and worth more than one read through IMHO thanks for posting :ok Damo

[robilaruk]

Re: 2+2 $110 Turbo STT

If you (or players still to act) have a short stack, and you have positive EV to shove, regardless of the range your opponent will call with, then what factors should be considered that could possibly make it right not to shove?

factors - wow loads - just a few off the top of my head

• who is tight/loose?
• are you desperate?
• do others view you as desperate?
• have you just had a bad beat and do people think you are steaming?
• are there others more aggressive than you and can you fold and let them beat each other up?
• are there others who are desperate or appear desperate to you?
• are the blinds about to go up?
• what is your position?
• how desperate are you to finish ITM?
• are you multi-tabling and it doesn't matter as you can fire up another table?
• are the people you are shoving against decent players?
• do the others understand ICM et al or will just look at their pretty cards and call?
• have you enough equity to shove and make folks fold?
• have you too little equity and folks will call with ATC?
• Are you better to call an agressive raise and get HU rather than shove to get a call or two perhaps?

cheers:ok Damo

[GaF]

Re: 2+2 $110 Turbo STT

• who is tight/loose? I'm short stacked, does it matter that much?
• are you desperate? Yes - I'm short stacked
• do others view you as desperate? Yes - I'm short stacked
• have you just had a bad beat and do people think you are steaming? Is that significant enough to change what you do when you are short stacked?
• are there others more aggressive than you and can you fold and let them beat each other up? I prefer to play to win rather than try and fold my way into 3rd place money - but I think I'm overaggressive in STTs. We're not necessarily on the bubble here... The shove is positive EV in terms of winnings though, not tournament chips - so should take account of "are others more desperate".
• are there others who are desperate or appear desperate to you? I'm short stacked, I'm desperate...
• are the blinds about to go up? Well I'm short stacked even if they dont
• what is your position? Such that I have positive ev by shoving
• how desperate are you to finish ITM? It's an STT, there's another coming along shortly - I'm playing within my bankroll, so no excessive fear of bubbling
• are you multi-tabling and it doesn't matter as you can fire up another table? Would it be right to fold a positive ev shove if I was multitabling? Not sure why that might stop me shoving - I'm more likely to shove if I am multitabling ...
• are the people you are shoving against decent players? As in, "do they know when to fold"? Doesn't matter - I have positive ev whether they call or fold
• do the others understand ICM et al or will just look at their pretty cards and call? Doesn't matter, I have positive ev if they do call
• have you enough equity to shove and make folks fold? Doesn't matter, I have positive ev if they do call
• have you too little equity and folks will call with ATC? Doesn't matter, I have positive ev if they do call
• Are you better to call an agressive raise and get HU rather than shove to get a call or two perhaps? I am short stacked and have a positive ev situation - I cant wait for a better situation, it's probably not coming

Not sure any of those would make me reconsider shoving when I have an "unexploitable" ev position (like in hand 63) The only situation I can think of where I wouldn't shove in this situation is where I have enough chips that there are other options which I would consider to have a higher ev than shoving (ICM only considers shove or fold, so only really comes into play with less than 10xBB - or less for real accuracy...)

[GaF]

Re: 2+2 $110 Turbo STT

Hand 37 - would shove if villian limped? please don't say so. Again I can't see how this is a +ev you are only getting called by a better hand here, so why shove and risk your tourny when you don't have to? hand 49 - no shove for me

You're not short stacked in these hands with an option to shove for an unexploitable play

[robilaruk]

Re: 2+2 $110 Turbo STT comments in blue Damo

• who is tight/loose? I'm short stacked, does it matter that much? yes if others are similarly struggling, plus if you only have 2BB left and mr big stack rock is in the BB to your but/sb you are probably shoving every hand, however if Mr LAAG with the big stack is in the BB then you might just fold as he will call with any 2 and gamble with you
• are you desperate? Yes - I'm short stacked. by your standards, but perhaps not others
• do others view you as desperate? Yes - I'm short stacked your defination of short stacked and someone elses can range widely, for some 10BB is the cutoff point, for others they will wait until they have 2BB or so, just because you think you are short stacked doesn't mean others do and others might think you are short stacked when you don't, this will affect their shoving/calling range against you
• have you just had a bad beat and do people think you are steaming? Is that significant enough to change what you do when you are short stacked? IMO yes, people are more likely to call a steaming player, so this will effect your shoving range as their calling range is looser and you might end up with more than one caller
• are there others more aggressive than you and can you fold and let them beat each other up? I prefer to play to win rather than try and fold my way into 3rd place money - but I think I'm overaggressive in STTs. We're not necessarily on the bubble here... The shove is positive EV in terms of winnings though, not tournament chips - so should take account of "are others more desperate". and this is why i rarely post on 2+2 anymore, I just don't get being a shove monkey and get shouted down if I say why not just fold and why shove crap when you don't have to (you can blame Andy and his excellent 'finish in the money post' for this :clap)
• are there others who are desperate or appear desperate to you? I'm short stacked, I'm desperate... that was not my question! 4 left, 3 have 2.5-5BB left and the HUGE stack is on the BB with you in the SB and the huge stack is shoving every hand, the other 2 are as desperate as you and have to go through the blinds in the next 2 hands, or one of the mid stacks with 8-10BB is shoving every other hand, he belives he is desperate, can we take advantage of his play? you gain EV when others make mistakes remember
• are the blinds about to go up? Well I'm short stacked even if they dont. Not the point, say you are in the sb with 5BB (100/200), UTG has 500 left and UTG+1 has 1000 and the blinds will go up in 10 secs. If you count the clock down and fold, the blinds go to 200/400 and UTG is AI on one of the next 2 hands (BB/SB) with UTG+1 in a similar position the hand after, all of a sudden they are desperate and you might just make the money etc
• what is your position? Such that I have positive ev by shoving. well this makes it the SB then
• how desperate are you to finish ITM? It's an STT, there's another coming along shortly - I'm playing within my bankroll, so no excessive fear of bubbling. excellent answer:ok
• are you multi-tabling and it doesn't matter as you can fire up another table? Would it be right to fold a positive ev shove if I was multitabling? Not sure why that might stop me shoving - I'm more likely to shove if I am multitabling ... excellent answer:ok easier to shove if multi-tabling as you have other games to play and improve the hourly rate, however if you are only single tabling and are looking at your hourly rate (or even playing for fun) this may have a bearing on your play
• are the people you are shoving against decent players? As in, "do they know when to fold"? Doesn't matter - I have positive ev whether they call or fold. if you are shoving against a decent player they are more likely to fold, part of EV is winning the blinds and antes, not just getting called and doubling up, with a crap player who sees Q4 suited and not what you have done he is more likely to call which is not want you want to happen sometimes! :lol so I think that shoving against a decent player is better long term if all you want to do is win the blinds/antes which keeps you alive for another orbit and increases you stack size with which to make another shove
• do the others understand ICM et al or will just look at their pretty cards and call? Doesn't matter, I have positive ev if they do call. and this is why I no longer post on 2+2! people say you are +X% so shove I say why and get shouted at?
• have you enough equity to shove and make folks fold? Doesn't matter, I have positive ev if they do call. it does, you can win the blinds and antes to keep you going for another orbit and let others make a mistake before it gets back to you and/or gives you more chips to shove increasing your equity
• have you too little equity and folks will call with ATC? Doesn't matter, I have positive ev if they do call. if you are on the sb, what if you are on the button against 2 mid stacks - are they calling and checking it down?
• Are you better to call an agressive raise and get HU rather than shove to get a call or two perhaps? I am short stacked and have a positive ev situation - I cant wait for a better situation, it's probably not coming. personally I would rather call with 85 off to the massive stack raise who is bullying the mid stack players, than shove 85 off in the SB vs BB mid stack

Not sure any of those would make me reconsider shoving when I have an "unexploitable" ev position (like in hand 63) The only situation I can think of where I wouldn't shove in this situation is where I have enough chips that there are other options which I would consider to have a higher ev than shoving (ICM only considers shove or fold, so only really comes into play with less than 10xBB - or less for real accuracy

[GaF]

Re: 2+2 $110 Turbo STT I'm going to pick and choose my replies here :tongue2 I think we're both saying much the same thing in a lot of the poinst - If there are any that you specifically want me to reply to, point them out and I will :ok

do the others understand ICM et al or will just look at their pretty cards and call? Doesn't matter, I have positive ev if they do call. and this is why I no longer post on 2+2! people say you are +X% so shove I say why and get shouted at?

Positive ev is the holy grail of poker - if you consistently play positive ev situations you will be a winning player - if you consistently play negative ev situations, you will be a losing player - it really is as simple as that isn't it? Everything you do in poker is to try and get a positive ev situation - nothing else matters ..... Caspar Berry has been doing a series of articles in Flush Magazine, and he has made ev the cornerstone of his series - for me his series is really hitting the nail on the head - well worth a read :ok

Are you better to call an agressive raise and get HU rather than shove to get a call or two perhaps? I am short stacked and have a positive ev situation - I cant wait for a better situation, it's probably not coming. personally I would rather call with 85 off to the massive stack raise who is bullying the mid stack players, than shove 85 off in the SB vs BB mid stack

Shoving with 85o will seldom give you an unexploitable situation - only when you are extremely short stacked

are there others who are desperate or appear desperate to you? I'm short stacked, I'm desperate... that was not my question! 4 left, 3 have 2.5-5BB left and the HUGE stack is on the BB with you in the SB and the huge stack is shoving every hand, the other 2 are as desperate as you and have to go through the blinds in the next 2 hands, or one of the mid stacks with 8-10BB is shoving every other hand, he belives he is desperate, can we take advantage of his play? you gain EV when others make mistakes remember

But if my play is positive EV and unexploitable, then the risk of bubbling is outweighed by the extra benefit you will get through the extra chips when you win....

[robilaruk]

Re: 2+2 $110 Turbo STT Just one more thing to add EV assumes every one plays optimally, unfortunately people don't play optimally at all times and thats why i think relying on +EV situations alone is not good poker (otherwise the maths geeks of the world would rule:D) this is just a personal opinion and goes against the logic of ICM etc Damo ps excellent thread - thanks

.

[GaF]

Re: 2+2 $110 Turbo STT

ps excellent thread - thanks

Discussing and understanding opposing views is how we all improve :ok Will come back to this thread when I have a little more clarity of thought :loon