GaF Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Anyone else get the feeling that there is a high degree of "snobbery" when it comes to going all in pre flop in poker? There seem to be a high number of players who feel that "they are too good" to go all in (call or raise) pre flop, and they would rather fold than leave it in the lap of the poker gods....Not directed at any PL'rs - just got thinking about it in an STT where a player made the comment "What have you got to do to see a flop around here" when I raised all in from late position after he limped in early position - not a significant raise at the time (average stack was low - 3 or 4 times the BB) and he probably should have been calling with virtually any 2 cards .... but he was just "too good a player" to be taking that chance - obviously these players aren't THAT good, and must be giving away a significant edge by their reluctance to go all in pre flop........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Re: Poker Snobbery just got thinking about it in an STT where a player made the comment "What have you got to do to see a flop around here" when I raised all in from late position after he limped in early position Isn't the answer to that question rather obvious? :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Quiet Man Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Re: Poker Snobbery Anyone else get the feeling that there is a high degree of "snobbery" when it comes to going all in pre flop in poker? There seem to be a high number of players who feel that "they are too good" to go all in (call or raise) pre flop, and they would rather fold than leave it in the lap of the poker gods....Not directed at any PL'rs - just got thinking about it in an STT where a player made the comment "What have you got to do to see a flop around here" when I raised all in from late position after he limped in early position - not a significant raise at the time (average stack was low - 3 or 4 times the BB) and he probably should have been calling with virtually any 2 cards .... but he was just "too good a player" to be taking that chance - obviously these players aren't THAT good, and must be giving away a significant edge by their reluctance to go all in pre flop........ Yep, got that feeling from that character - think his name was Shedboy or something similar! :unsure After you went out he had A8 and forced the SB all in with K9 and was abusive when he lost the hand! :lol It appeared he went on tilt and was quite good to watch as he was still insulting Htheman big time! :lol He actually had quite good cards in his last 2 hands but went out to H's runner runner straight. :clap Nice to know he won't go all in though and hope he's at my table next Monday! :ok TQM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Re: Poker Snobbery There seem to be a high number of players who feel that "they are too good" to go all in (call or raise) pre flop, and they would rather fold than leave it in the lap of the poker gods........ but he was just "too good a player" to be taking that chance - obviously these players aren't THAT good, and must be giving away a significant edge by their reluctance to go all in pre flop........ why call if you think you are behind if you have significant chips to fold and wait. if you haven't got a decent stack then get your chips in and gamble why takes chances when you can use position to your advantage? am not sure how you can quantify what edge they are 'losing', or even if they are losing an edge - if they are a 60/40 dog, they surely gain by folding? (cue the maths types) Without specifics its hard to properly answer this? Damo ps nice post though - worth exploring I think as it does question/answer the psychology part of poker and peoples mindsets :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voiceofjoe Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Re: Poker Snobbery Phil Hellmuth,Daniel Negranu would also probably comment on the all-in in the early stages. (I cant work out what stage you say the above occurred) I would agree if you need to be pushing in the early stages then, its the Pusher, that isn't that good.Better players would be looking to play after the flop. Although in STT's the blind and stack structure doesn't allow for to many failed postflop plays Although in the later stages of tourneys when short handed you need to be pushing to keep ahead of the blinds. At this point you may as well push as it removes the advantage of position from the post flop play - plus a lot of the hands you will be getting would be either crap, or better suited to multi-way pots which your not going to get short handed. Funny how it all turns around again Heads Up ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Re: Poker Snobbery I've played STTs where I've had a big chip lead with four players left (doesn't happen often!) and I've just gone all-in every hand because nobody seemed inclined to call and risk bubbling, and I've got comments like "Moron! Why play like that?" On one of these occasions the comment came from a player who kept limping in and folding to my raise, even after he realized that was what would happen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Re: Poker Snobbery thats perfect play IMO:ok and lets work out who the moron actually is, limp and fold more than once?? :eyes Damo I've played STTs where I've had a big chip lead with four players left (doesn't happen often!) and I've just gone all-in every hand because nobody seemed inclined to call and risk bubbling, and I've got comments like "Moron! Why play like that?" On one of these occasions the comment came from a player who kept limping in and folding to my raise, even after he realized that was what would happen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus01 Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Re: Poker Snobbery I encountered this in a major tournament. I was deep into the tournament and any all in increased by stack from bewteen 15% to 20%. I was going all in a lot because my hands were not that strong that I wanted to see a flop but were good enough to steal the blinds with. One guy called me a one trick pony funnily enough I knocked him out of the tourney later on :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted July 10, 2007 Author Share Posted July 10, 2007 Re: Poker Snobbery am not sure how you can quantify what edge they are 'losing', or even if they are losing an edge - if they are a 60/40 dog, they surely gain by folding? (cue the maths types) Ok - lets take a totally ridiculous, extreme example, which demonstrates the principle - if we can agree the principal, then it's only a matter of degree..... You are on the Big Blind with 401 chips. The Small Blind has 100,000 chips. The blinds are 200/400. Everyone folds to the SB raises all in. It costs you 1 chip to play in the 801 chip pot - you have 801-1. You are far enough from the money that folding and keeping 1 chip to limp into the prizes is not a serious option. You look at your cards and see 23o. You are beating NOTHING. Do you call or fold? I think we would all agree, you have to call!! Anyone argue that in this circumstance, it is correct to call for your tournament, when you know you are behind? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Re: Poker Snobbery bit lost now - have I misunderstood your original post GaF? This is a no brainer call - are you saying that it is wrong to call an AI when it is blindingly obvious? your hand is no more than a 5-1dog and you are being offered 800-1 to call - thats easy Damo Ok - lets take a totally ridiculous, extreme example, which demonstrates the principle - if we can agree the principal, then it's only a matter of degree..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Re: Poker Snobbery You look at your cards and see 23o. You are beating NOTHING. Not strictly true. :tongue2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted July 10, 2007 Author Share Posted July 10, 2007 Re: Poker Snobbery Not strictly true. :tongue2 lol - Ok - 23o where their 2 is the same suit as your 3!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus01 Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Re: Poker Snobbery getting just over 5/2 in original post should call really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted July 10, 2007 Author Share Posted July 10, 2007 Re: Poker Snobbery This is a no brainer call - are you saying that it is wrong to call an AI when it is blindingly obvious? your hand is no more than a 5-1dog and you are being offered 800-1 to call - thats easy Ok - I misread your post - I thought you were saying that it is wrong to call for your tournament when you are behind .... I was trying to demonstrate that it can be (blindingly obvious) that there are times when you should call for your tournament life when you are clearly behind.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus01 Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Re: Poker Snobbery How % of his stack did it cost to call?? If it's a fair proportion he shouldn't be limping in the 1st place and he's actually a bad player for folding to your all in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted July 10, 2007 Author Share Posted July 10, 2007 Re: Poker Snobbery TBH, the specific example I gave isn't really important .... that's just what triggered my post - was more of a generic discussion point.... (If I'm honest, it was a few days ago - I dont really recall the stacks or tournament....) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted July 10, 2007 Author Share Posted July 10, 2007 Re: Poker Snobbery If it's a fair proportion he shouldn't be limping in the 1st place I think thats the exact point I'm trying to make - it's people who are limping, at a stage in the tournament when your only choices are all in or fold, and trying to understand the psychology behind their motive ..... I think it's because they believe they are too good to be raising all in pre flop and want to out play their opponents ..... what I'm trying to say, even if their post flop play is good enough that they have an edge over the field, by limping (and folding to a raise) they lose significantly more than any post flop edge they could have.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Re: Poker Snobbery A-HA I understand your point now yes, in that particular scenario when your stack to blind ratio is small, then limping to out-play people on the flop is wrong and you do give up an edge - I guess its deciding what your stack to blind ratio actually is, which defines when we should shove rather than just limp am with the plot now:eek Damo I think thats the exact point I'm trying to make - it's people who are limping' date=' at a stage in the tournament when your only choices are all in or fold, and trying to understand the psychology behind their motive ..... I think it's because they believe they are too good to be raising all in pre flop and want to out play their opponents ..... what I'm trying to say, even if their post flop play is good enough that they have an edge over the field, by limping (and folding to a raise) they lose significantly more than any post flop edge they could have....[/quote'] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voiceofjoe Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Re: Poker Snobbery I think thats the exact point I'm trying to make - it's people who are limping' date=' at a stage in the tournament when your only choices are all in or fold, and trying to understand the psychology behind their motive ..... I think it's because they believe they are too good to be raising all in pre flop and want to out play their opponents ..... what I'm trying to say, even if their post flop play is good enough that they have an edge over the field, by limping (and folding to a raise) they lose significantly more than any post flop edge they could have....[/quote'] Well thats obvious, you should have said that from beginning !! :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Re: Poker Snobbery Not directly relevant to GaF's scenario, but vaguely related ... I read something by Daniel Negreanu where he said that he preferred to play "small ball" poker because he expected to outplay most people after the flop, but that for players who were likely to be outclassed post-flop, making larger raises pre-flop to try to take the pot there and then was probably a better strategy. It sounded as though the reason he berates lesser players for doing this against him ("that's not poker", etc.) is not because he thinks they're doing anything stupid, but because he hopes he can embarrass them into stopping ... because it's reducing his advantage! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick mick Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Re: Poker Snobbery As an extreme example of terrible limping a game I played this afternoon. I'm big blind UTG has 1.5 BB and limps in, folded round to me, I raise he folds, this is with 31 left and 10 paid. Earlier in same game saw somebody go all in for 805 with blinds 400/800 folded round to Big Blind who also folds for the sake of 5 chips. Personally I'm glad to see play like this because these are the people who make poker profitable for me. I often get criticised for my play but don't care as long as I'm winning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted July 10, 2007 Author Share Posted July 10, 2007 Re: Poker Snobbery Not directly relevant to GaF's scenario, but vaguely related ... I read something by Daniel Negreanu where he said that he preferred to play "small ball" poker because he expected to outplay most people after the flop, but that for players who were likely to be outclassed post-flop, making larger raises pre-flop to try to take the pot there and then was probably a better strategy. It sounded as though the reason he berates lesser players for doing this against him ("that's not poker", etc.) is not because he thinks they're doing anything stupid, but because he hopes he can embarrass them into stopping ... because it's reducing his advantage! That's actually quite interesting and could also quite easily be their motivation for doing it (espcially if DN has publicised it...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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