Shove with nothing or call with big cards?

[GaF]

Interested in which situation people prefer to be in ........ If you can choose one or the other, which one do you choose? Game) Standard 10 seat STT. There are 5 players left. Blinds are 200/400. Hand 1) You are in the Small Blind. Everyone has folded to you. You have 1300 chips. The BB has 1900 chips. You are the 2 small stacks in the game. You look down and see 9c and 6d. As time is running out for you, you decide to shove. Hand 2) You are in the Big Blind. Everyone folded to the Small Blind who shoved with his last 1300 chips. You have 1900 chips. You are the two small stacks in the game. You look down and are happy to see AhQs and call in an instant.

[teaulc]

Re: Shove with nothing or call with big cards? interesting poser trev, a little while ago i would have said number 2 without a doubt but now i am gonna say number 1

[Jaded]

Re: Shove with nothing or call with big cards? I say shove with nothing. In fact, I like the option so much, I haven't even looked to see what the other option WAS... :rollin

[The Quiet Man]

Re: Shove with nothing or call with big cards? I always prefer to be ahead!! Option 2 for me! TQM

[goater14]

Re: Shove with nothing or call with big cards? Same as teaulc I would of gone for option 2 awhile ago. Interesting article in last months pokerplayer along the same lines as GaFs post about playing on the bubble in SnGs. In it they gave you 3 scenarios where you either go all-in or fold, I must admit I got all 3 problems wrong:$ which at the time surprized me but reading the solutions it all began to make sense:nana

[GaF]

Re: Shove with nothing or call with big cards?

Interesting article in last months pokerplayer along the same lines as GaFs post about playing on the bubble in SnGs. In it they gave you 3 scenarios where you either go all-in or fold' date=' I must admit I got all 3 problems wrong:$ which at the time surprized me but reading the solutions it all began to make sense:nana[/quote'] I got 3 out of 3 in that :nana :cow :nana :cow Seriously - get yourself SNGEGT (free version is fine and has most functionality) :ok There are some "trainers" in that for this kind of scenario... Will play around with this scenario in it a bit later......

[georgej]

Re: Shove with nothing or call with big cards? I went for option 2. I'd prefer to put it one the line with decent cards, rather than a hit and hope option if the BB in option 1 decides to call. Maybe i just play against too many fish...

[daftpegasus]

Re: Shove with nothing or call with big cards? I'd be happy in either situation. If you're in the SB and everyone folds round to you (at that level of the tourney) you have to be happy to take the risk. If you come up against AQ then so be it. If you're in the BB with AQ against one short stacked all in then you're calling everyday of the week. If I was forced to choose I'd take option 2 as it's ahead at the time the money goes in, and, if it loses you still have some chips left.

[avongirl]

Re: Shove with nothing or call with big cards? I'm pretty sure option 1 is the "right" answer, but I'd be option 2 for the same reason as DP. If I lose, then I'm shoving with anything as soon as I'm first in the pot (if poss) or next time the blinds are round. (or even next hand since I'll be SB :tongue2 )

[happyhornet]

Re: Shove with nothing or call with big cards? Yup, with Avon and DP, would play them both, but Option 2 seems to be the better option.

[runadrum]

Re: Shove with nothing or call with big cards? think I'm with the latter flow of this thread I would probably make the play suggested in both hands but I would do so with a lot more confidence in hand 2 :ok

[SteveO]

Re: Shove with nothing or call with big cards? I prefer the second situation. In th first situation a large % of the time the bb is going to call with any 2 cards because the odds are there to call. 1700 in the pot and it costs the bb 900 to call (nearly 2/1). So my decision in situation1 would depend upon how tight the bb is, if he's particularly loose I wait for a better spot. If I was the bb in situation1 I would call with virtually any 2 cards.

[slapdash]

Re: Shove with nothing or call with big cards? Shove. Though it depends on the other player to a great extent. Shoving in this kind of situation depends on the other player knowing what's good for him. Calling too often costs you money, but it also costs the other player money: the people who benefit in the long run when there's a shove and call are the players who aren't involved in the hand. It's less attractive to shove if the other player thinks (wrongly) that because you're shoving with rubbish, they can call with semi-rubbish.

[Punto Banco]

Re: Shove with nothing or call with big cards?

Shove. Though it depends on the other player to a great extent. Shoving in this kind of situation depends on the other player knowing what's good for him. Calling too often costs you money, but it also costs the other player money: the people who benefit in the long run when there's a shove and call are the players who aren't involved in the hand. It's less attractive to shove if the other player thinks (wrongly) that because you're shoving with rubbish, they can call with semi-rubbish.

See the thing is whether the Big blind believes he is commited and will call with anything (which in many situations this will be the case) I feel that option 1 is based on folding equity and in truth if there is none then option 2 becomes the HEAVILY favoured hand... personally with stacks we are talking with 5 left (1 more then bubble) I would almost call anything on the BB bar non suited, not connected cards which means far more than 50% of the time... I realise that other people would not however I would assuming the stacks include blinds... big blind is getting almost 2/1 odds too call I mean unless you feel you are dominated call is the choice... and on this basis I will assume others on the BB will do the same... therefore the advantage that comes with shoving is lost... adding too this getting 2/1 too call with AQ should not be ignored... for this situation those odds are realy top notch... there are 10 000 other this you could do in poker that is worse than this... really... ... option 2

[GaF]

Re: Shove with nothing or call with big cards? Ok - a little "play" in SNGEGT .... Hand 1 - As people have said - the success (or otherwise) of this move depends on the range of hands that your opponent will call with.... If your opponent will call with more than 69% of hands, then it is negative ev to shove. If your opponent will call with less than 69% of hands then it is positive ev to shove. What is 69%? Any pair, Any Ace, Any King, Any Queen, Any Jack, Any Suited Ten, Any unsuited Ten with a 5 kicker or better, an unsuited 9 with a 6 or better kicker, any suited 9 with a 5 or better kicker, 87o, a suited 8 with a 5 or better kicker and 76s!!!! That's quite a range!!! In most circumstances I can see the BB laying some of those hands down!!! If the BB is playing extremely tight, and will only call with top 30% of hands, then shoving has a positive ev of 2.2%. Hand 2 - Again - the range of cards that the SB will shove with determines whether you should call or not. If the SB will shove with more than top 6% of cards (which he clearly will) then it is positive EV to call. If the Small Blind will shove with Any 2 Cards (as he may well do) then calling has positive ev of 4.6%. If the Small blind will only shove with top 30% of hands, then the ev of calling is 3.9%. Can I change my vote please? Hand 2 is looking the better situation :ok

[slapdash]

Re: Shove with nothing or call with big cards?

Can I change my vote please? Hand 2 is looking the better situation :ok

I think I agree. I did some calculations (not using SNGENT) and it seems to me that while both situations are +EV in terms of tournament equity, the second is significantly better unless the player going all-in is a complete rock. I haven't done any calculations on this, but it would be interesting to see what difference it makes if the chip stacks are changed so that the player going all-in has the potential caller covered.

[Punto Banco]

Re: Shove with nothing or call with big cards?

I think I agree. I did some calculations (not using SNGENT) and it seems to me that while both situations are +EV in terms of tournament equity, the second is significantly better unless the player going all-in is a complete rock. I haven't done any calculations on this, but it would be interesting to see what difference it makes if the chip stacks are changed so that the player going all-in has the potential caller covered.

... or indeed if player 2 has the hero well covered... eg 2800 to call 1300 im sure these only detract from the profitability of the 1st action... but by how much is the interesting question...

[msaban]

Re: Shove with nothing or call with big cards? both, but option2 as many others have said is preferable. You can raise with anything, but to call with anything is a different matter.

[GaF]

Re: Shove with nothing or call with big cards? The reason I went for Option 1 originally..... 96o is 45% against a random hand if it gets to showdown. If the BB calls, for example 50% of the time and folds 50% of the time then your odds of winning the hand are 50% + (45% * 50%) = 72.5% If you are the BB though, calling with AQo against any 2 cards, then you are only 64% to win the hand. So shoving with 96o has an 8% greater chance of winning the hand than calling with AQo. I suppose that what I'm failing to consider is that when 96o wins the hand, it will often only be the blinds, but when AQo wins the hand, it will be the SB entire stack. What I'm actually doing is the first part of an ev calculation (calculating the chance of winning), but forgetting step 2 (to multiply by the winnings of each option) :unsure

[slapdash]

Re: Shove with nothing or call with big cards? I think the main thing I underestimated was how much tournament equity the BB would have if he called and lost. So I was overestimating how much the BB was risking by calling. That's why I wondered what would happen if the SB had the BB covered. Could you try your "play" in SNGEGT again, transferring enough chips from the BB to the SB so that before the blinds the chip counts are switched?

[GaF]

Re: Shove with nothing or call with big cards? If the BB has 1300 chips (so 900 after posting the BB) and the SB has 1900 chips..... The EV for the SB to shove is 3.4% against the tightest rock, and -0.1% against someone who will call with anything. The previous break even point where you are called by the BB 69% of the time now has a positive ev of 0.2%!!!! The EV for the BB to call with AQo is -2.6% against a rock, and 4.4% against someone who will shove with anything. The previous break even ev point of shoving with top 6% hands now has positive ev for calling of 0.3%!!! (PS I'm only using the "Free" version of SNGEGT - so you can download and play different sceraios yourself if it's better than the other software you're using)

[slapdash]

Re: Shove with nothing or call with big cards? Thanks.

if it's better than the other software you're using)

The "other software" I was using was Poker Stove + an online ICM calculator + a pen and paper + a calculator!

[robilaruk]

Re: Shove with nothing or call with big cards? yes to both easy shove & easy call I have no preferred option Damo

Interested in which situation people prefer to be in ........ If you can choose one or the other, which one do you choose?

[aimar21]

Re: Shove with nothing or call with big cards? I choose shove with nothing because you don't have to win if your opponent folds which is really important for everyone but more important for me because even with a hand like AQ(I'm the favourite or flipping or dominating no matter what) I win 25% of the time.

[voiceofjoe]

Re: Shove with nothing or call with big cards? No disrespect, but I think some of you think you are playing robots not people. Option 2 is a no brainer Option 1 Why? I would rather push on the Button, giving chance to pick up both SB & BB - your obviously not pushing in the hope of being called - or even call a large raise from a bigger stack whilst holding a better drawing, or paired hand.

[slapdash]

Re: Shove with nothing or call with big cards?

Option 1 Why? I would rather push on the Button, giving chance to pick up both SB & BB - your obviously not pushing in the hope of being called - or even call a large raise from a bigger stack whilst holding a better drawing, or paired hand.

If you push as small blind you also have the chance of picking up both the SB and BB, and you only have one player who might call you rather than two. Isn't that safer?

[GaF]

Re: Shove with nothing or call with big cards?

Option 1 Why? I would rather push on the Button, giving chance to pick up both SB & BB - your obviously not pushing in the hope of being called - or even call a large raise from a bigger stack whilst holding a better drawing, or paired hand.

Are you saying you'll never get frisky from the Small Blind with nothing when everyone folds to you? :unsure As Slap says - pushing from the Small Blind, where you will win a SB and BB, and only need 1 player to fold is preferable to pushing from the button where you will win the same (SB and BB) but have 2 people to go through ........ If you are raising, but not going all in, then the button is clearly better because you have position after the flop, but if youa re all in, then position after the flop is obviously of no significance

[aimar21]

Re: Shove with nothing or call with big cards?

Option 1 Why? I would rather push on the Button, giving chance to pick up both SB & BB - your obviously not pushing in the hope of being called - or even call a large raise from a bigger stack whilst holding a better drawing, or paired hand.

Sorry what I'm trying to say is already mentioned but I wrote this before reading them so ignore this one.. My English is not perfect maybe I got you wrong but blinds are already in the pot so you win the same pot with an advantage of pushing against only one player in the SB.