Suited connectors

[jgadefelth]

I have some problems with those for example 89of spades how often does this hand flop a str or a flush draw or a better hand like 2 pairs or triss ? what im trying to do is figure out how mutch i can call preflop against a rasior with AA for me to go + of it with one alone bettor or more people in the pot ? Best Regards John

[GaF]

Re: Suited connectors This has some of your answers :ok http://www.pokerplayermagazine.co.uk/pokertips/skillsandstrategy/1865/poker_numbers_you_must_know.html

[jgadefelth]

Re: Suited connectors naaa :D it say i win 20% with them over AA and it say how great chanse i have of getting a flush by the river or a dtraight by the river. But what are the chanses of getting anything intresting on the flop with them lika a str draw or a flush draw or something like that ? not on the river but a draw at the flop or better ? Best Regards John

[GaF]

Re: Suited connectors Found this on another forum :ok

With 0 gap middle suited connectors (eg 76s) Flop Four to the Flush 11% Flop an OE straight draw eg 85x or 54x 11% Flop 2 Pairs eg 76x 2% Flop a Straight 1% Flop Trips or a Full eg 77x or 55x 1% Flop a Flush 1% Flop Any of the Above 27% With 1 gap middle suited connectors (eg 75s) Flop Four to the Flush 11% Flop an OE straight draw eg 64x or 86x 7% Flop 2 Pairs eg 75x 2% Flop a Straight 1% Flop Trips or a Full eg 77x or 55x 1% Flop a Flush 1% Flop Any of the Above 23% With 2 gap middle suited connectors (eg 85s) Flop Four to the Flush 11% Flop an OE straight draw eg 76x 4% Flop 2 Pairs eg 85x 2% Flop a Straight 1% Flop Trips or a Full eg 88x or 55x 1% Flop a Flush 1% Flop Any of the Above 20%

[jgadefelth]

Re: Suited connectors thanks mate that is what i mean :clap Best Regards John

[Dodger]

Re: Suited connectors Just wanted to call up this thread as suited connectors seem to be the big thing at the moment as the game becomes more aggressive. Having read a few articles recently in an attempt to improve my game the playing of suited connectors seems to run like this: Great hand if you can get in cheap. In a hand where most have called the BB, a cheap multi hand pot, a great hand to limp with in the hope of hitting the flop. To a small raise, particularly with two or three callers, suited connectors can be a gold mine when you hit the flop. When short stacked against one other player you can shove your chips in as you are unlikely to be totally dominated. These seem to be the three scenarios that come up when discussing suited connectors...we are looking at 0 gap ones here I think. However...to the reason for posting this up...I have spotted several times, in 3 seater STTs and in the Poker League games that people are calling two all-ins with them even in the early stages of a game with level stacks. Also they are often raising heavily, say 4-5 BB, when totally out of position...ending up with 1 or 2 callers. (and even calling an all-in reraise) But surely in these two situations you are risking far too many chips on what is still a very dodgy hand. So either I'm missing something here or people are just going way overboard with them. :unsure:unsure:unsure

[Hooloovoo]

Re: Suited connectors

To a small raise, particularly with two or three callers, suited connectors can be a gold mine when you hit the flop.

The above is true. Many people overplay suited connectors and play them way too aggressively. If you have a full table, cash game or tourney with small blinds, raising 5 x BB OOP with suited connectors is the road to ruin imo. People often overvalue the fact that they are suited. In an all-in situation with one opponent, the fact that your cards are suited only improve your chances to win in a showdown with 2 %.

[ubermonkey1]

Re: Suited connectors

However...to the reason for posting this up...I have spotted several times, in 3 seater STTs and in the Poker League games that people are calling two all-ins with them even in the early stages of a game with level stacks. Also they are often raising heavily, say 4-5 BB, when totally out of position...ending up with 1 or 2 callers. (and even calling an all-in reraise) But surely in these two situations you are risking far too many chips on what is still a very dodgy hand. So either I'm missing something here or people are just going way overboard with them. :unsure:unsure:unsure

okay i wouldnt be calling all in reraises(unless the odds were very very good)but i would be raising from early position if i had a decent stack to back it up and good implied odds:ok say your on the first level 10/20and the starting stack is 2000 . if you put in a 4x raise its only 80 chips even if you get reraised to say 200 you can still call and your hardly dent your stack at such an early stage. if you do hit big with a straight, flush or even trips its a lot less likely your opponent will give you credit for it,so there's a good chance of doubling up or a decent pot..or your opponent has noticed you could be playing this sort of hand from early pos which leaves them in a bit of a quandry, you could have aces or kings or a load of bull:loon this should make you more when you do have aces or kings ,whereas someone who will only raise from there with a massive hand will get found out and they wont make a bean out of them:ok of course this is less usefull on a random game than say a league or pl game where you will be playing the same players over and over and they should be forming some opinion on your play(maybe why your noticing this there;)) its also about changing up and down gears as well, this is sort of 5th gear flying down the motorway with people shouting luckbox at you,its about as loose as i'd play:tongue2 if you blow too much stack to make it worthwhile implied odds wise then you tighten right up,at least if you hit a nice hand at that point there's a good chance you can double it back thru with the crazy image you have portrayed.

[muttley]

Re: Suited connectors

okay i wouldnt be calling all in reraises(unless the odds were very very good)but i would be raising from early position if i had a decent stack to back it up and good implied odds:ok

There's a very good chapter on how to play small suited connectors in Doyle Brunson's Super System. You usually end up folding after the flop, but if you hit then you can win a big pot. I'd usually limp from early position.

[SteveO]

Re: Suited connectors I'd limp from early position too, but to polarise my range I limp with everything during the early levels of a tournament a lot of the time. Just the way I choose to play.

[Dodger]

Re: Suited connectors Interesting post Uber...definitely food for thought.

[ubermonkey1]

Re: Suited connectors

I'd limp from early position too' date=' but to polarise my range I limp with everything during the early levels of a tournament a lot of the time. Just the way I choose to play.[/quote'] yeah i play that way as well sometimes:oklots of pots but i could be ultra strong or fairly weak. works on the same principal really ,the fact they know you might be very strong means you get in more cheap flops.the only reason i dont like playing this way is i get less info on other players but you get a lot more shots at pots if your only posting a bb at a time.usually i want a stronger hand on the flop to be pushing money in playing like this.

[seanfaz]

Re: Suited connectors I'm always raising with suited connectors from any position except maybe very early positions, especially early in an MTT. Suited connectors are more powerful hands than even AA in the first few levels, because good players won't make deep-stacked mistakes with AA, and it is difficult to make bad mistakes with suited connectors. The raise adds deception to your hand as well, because people won't be putting you on them. They are also great re-raising hands in late position in the early stages for deception, gaining control of the pot, and getting chips in when you're in position, 3 key elements of succesful poker.

[billy the punter]

Re: Suited connectors

I'm always raising with suited connectors from any position except maybe very early positions' date=' especially early in an MTT. Suited connectors are more powerful hands than even AA in the first few levels, because good players won't make deep-stacked mistakes with AA, and it is difficult to make bad mistakes with suited connectors. The raise adds deception to your hand as well, because people won't be putting you on them. They are also great re-raising hands in late position in the early stages for deception, gaining control of the pot, and getting chips in when you're in position, 3 key elements of succesful poker.[/quote'] Yes they can be great "chip getting" hands early in MTTs but I disagree with the way you suggest playing them. They are playable in most spots early on (even in raised pots) but they are best played meekly pre-flop. You want to get in cheap with these cards, you want to see flops and bust big hands. That is their appeal. By raising or reraising with them preflop then you open yourself up to getting priced out preflop (due to further reraises) - cardinal sin. Now the aim is to play these against big hands yes? Well if you're against big hands you're going to face reraises if you're too busy preflop. I believe playing them the way you describe is defeating the object. Those are my thoughts anyway - although I suppose it's what suits your style. :ok

[seanfaz]

Re: Suited connectors Ok, i'll explain my thinking a little then, as this is advanced thinking. First, I'll make the obvious but overlooked simple fact that we are playing with our cards face down; our opponent does not know what we hold. Second, the key to successful tournament play is aggression; you win more pots by taking control of the hand and representing strength. Taking these two points on board it shows that it does not matter what cards we are holding, because our opponent will percieve our strong play as if we have a big hand. This gives an extra way to win the pot. After all, it was pointed out earlier that we mostly miss the flop and have to fold, but by being the raiser we reverse that; our opponent will only hit the flop 1/3 of the time, and sometimes we flop big and win a huge pot. Thirdly, we win more points when we combine control of the betting with position - where we have the maximum information. By limping, we have no control of the pot and are playing just the cards we hold. This is pointless. Poker is not about what cards you hold, because your opponents can't see them. Be aggressive, and give yourself the chance to win pots more often than just simply "when you hit the flop". That is my advice

[billy the punter]

Re: Suited connectors

Ok' date= i'll explain my thinking a little then, as this is advanced thinking. First, I'll make the obvious but overlooked simple fact that we are playing with our cards face down; our opponent does not know what we hold. Second, the key to successful tournament play is aggression; you win more pots by taking control of the hand and representing strength. Taking these two points on board it shows that it does not matter what cards we are holding, because our opponent will percieve our strong play as if we have a big hand. This gives an extra way to win the pot. After all, it was pointed out earlier that we mostly miss the flop and have to fold, but by being the raiser we reverse that; our opponent will only hit the flop 1/3 of the time, and sometimes we flop big and win a huge pot. Thirdly, we win more points when we combine control of the betting with position - where we have the maximum information. By limping, we have no control of the pot and are playing just the cards we hold. This is pointless. Poker is not about what cards you hold, because your opponents can't see them. Be aggressive, and give yourself the chance to win pots more often than just simply "when you hit the flop". That is my advice

Choosing to NOT play "small ball" poker with these hands in deep stack games is NOT advanced thinking I assure you. But like I say, whatever suits... Good luck. :ok

[seanfaz]

Re: Suited connectors

Choosing to NOT play "small ball" poker with these hands in deep stack games is NOT advanced thinking I assure you. But like I say, whatever suits... Good luck. :ok

I think you are forgetting the crucial, fundamental aspect behind the theory of small ball - aggression and being in control of the pot in position. The three key elements of small pot poker is aggression, being in control (i.e. being the raiser), and position. I put forward a way to play suited connectors in a deceptive way (as your opponents won't be putting you on 89suited), which has all the elements of small ball. Note that in my original post i advocated doing this early in a tournament when the stacks are deep. This is because a hand such as 89suited is a much better hand to hold post-flop than a hand such as JJ, QQ, KK, AA and AK when stacks are deep. Those hands are much better when you can get alot of money in pre-flop and either get it in there and then or on the flop. Another benefit of re-raising the suited connectors in positin which i forgot to mention, is what this does in the long run. Say for instance, you re-raise with 89suited, your opponent calls, and the flop comes 8 8 2. Youre opponent checks, you bet and he check-raises all in. You call and he shows QQ. This means that you show your hand, and the whole table sees that you just re-raised with 89suited. Now this will really help you get value out of your big hands. Later in the tournament you pick up KK on the button. One player raises, you re-raise and he cannot narrow you down to a small range of big pairs and AK because he knows you may re-raise with suited connectors. He re-shoves all in with AQ and you are in great shape. If you had only raised your monsters, you would not have been paid off that way. He would have folded (the correct play), or called and folded the flop unless an ace hits (often a pretty bad play). I can assure you that this IS high level thinking

[billy the punter]

Re: Suited connectors

I think you are forgetting the crucial, fundamental aspect behind the theory of small ball - aggression and being in control of the pot in position. The three key elements of small pot poker is aggression, being in control (i.e. being the raiser), and position. I put forward a way to play suited connectors in a deceptive way (as your opponents won't be putting you on 89suited), which has all the elements of small ball. Note that in my original post i advocated doing this early in a tournament when the stacks are deep. This is because a hand such as 89suited is a much better hand to hold post-flop than a hand such as JJ, QQ, KK, AA and AK when stacks are deep. Those hands are much better when you can get alot of money in pre-flop and either get it in there and then or on the flop. Another benefit of re-raising the suited connectors in positin which i forgot to mention, is what this does in the long run. Say for instance, you re-raise with 89suited, your opponent calls, and the flop comes 8 8 2. Youre opponent checks, you bet and he check-raises all in. You call and he shows QQ. This means that you show your hand, and the whole table sees that you just re-raised with 89suited. Now this will really help you get value out of your big hands. Later in the tournament you pick up KK on the button. One player raises, you re-raise and he cannot narrow you down to a small range of big pairs and AK because he knows you may re-raise with suited connectors. He re-shoves all in with AQ and you are in great shape. If you had only raised your monsters, you would not have been paid off that way. He would have folded (the correct play), or called and folded the flop unless an ace hits (often a pretty bad play). I can assure you that this IS high level thinking

I think we play in very different games mate. Who on earth are you playing against for your opponent to flat call a reraise preflop with QQ and then check-raise all in with it? :loon I'm a winning deepstack tournmant player and was a regular winner in the past in London's biggest cash game, where the stacks were very deep. When you're playing against decent opponents, they are NOT going to call reraises preflop with JJ/QQ/TT and then give you all their chips on a scare flop - never gonna happen.

[seanfaz]

Re: Suited connectors Well they will call with QQ pre-flop and they certainly aren't folding on the flop. To be fair, they will probably call on the flop and maybe fold the turn. If you check the flop you can certainly get their stack. Likewise, I am a winning deepstack tournament player. But although the example with the QQ was a little wrong, the theory is correct (small ball).

[billy the punter]

Re: Suited connectors That's just a point how you need to change tactics with regards to different types a games.

[billy the punter]

Re: Suited connectors

Well they will call with QQ pre-flop and they certainly aren't folding on the flop. To be fair' date=' they will probably call on the flop and maybe fold the turn. If you check the flop you can certainly get their stack.[/quote'] What levels are we talking about here?

[seanfaz]

Re: Suited connectors $100+, big sunday tournaments. No higher than $300

[billy the punter]

Re: Suited connectors So we're not talking about cash then? Sorry. In MTTs you get a whole range of players as you know. Not many good players though will flat call a reraise with TT/JJ or QQ and then put all their money in on a scare flop. If they think they are good they will put YOUR reraise to the test and reshove. IF you're gonna get tied to JJ or QQ thats the best way to play it, IF. By reraising you leave yourself open to getting priced out and ruining your chance to catch a flop. You seem to be insisting that once you reraise with it, you NEVER get re-re-raised. Which I find strange.

[seanfaz]

Re: Suited connectors No, i never said that you won't get re-raised, of course that will happen alot when the player has AA or KK, but how often does that happen. I'm not saying you must always re-raise the suited connectors either, just that it is good sometimes just to mix up your play, add deception, and give you another way to win the pot. One thing i definately will not do with them is open limp, i would never advocate open limping any hand.

[billy the punter]

Re: Suited connectors

No, i never said that you won't get re-raised, of course that will happen alot when the player has AA or KK, but how often does that happen.

But you want to play suited connectors against these hands surely?

[ELCAKER]

Re: Suited connectors seanfaz - i advocate much of what you say, ie aggression is a gd thing, more than one way to win a pot, etc etc. And I like the way you have looked at the possibility of adding deception to your game by playing them from early position. but I dont think in the long run this is going to be profitable for you - for a start if I came across you playing suited connectors from early position, I'd start putting you under real pressure. Obviously you're going to get our big hands paid off but you'll also find yourself exiting far more from tourneys as people make stupid calls against you, just because they have seen you playing stupidly (in their eyes) from early position. Even now having seen you try and explain yourself I;m not sure i agree with it, if i saw you doing that on a table - i'd be after you. Not saying I'd get you but i probably wouldn't be the only one either....

[seanfaz]

Re: Suited connectors Yeah i see what you are saying, but the vast majority of the time you're not going to be showing the hand down. We'll usually either - pick up the pot pre-flop, pick it up with a c-bet, or fold to strong play from the opponent. The only time we're really showing down is if we hit the flop big and try to win a big pot. But of course, if we have to show the hand down then we have to take into account the change in table image. Im fully aware about what this would do to our image, and it means that we need to play very tight. Most of the time, opponents won't see this and will just remember that we re-raised suited connectors. Maybe I should have mentioned the shifts in table dynamics, perceptions and images etc etc

[billy the punter]

Re: Suited connectors Sean can I ask how long you've been playing and what sort of opposition you've been facing? I just think some of your theories are a little niaive, such ideas work in weak games/early in your career but they are useless in decent games, the ones you step up into. It seems you've just read Super System. ;) You've stated you're aggressive until strength from an opponent - that is such a black and white view. Aggression is key, but putting a lot of money in preflop with suited connectors will turn you into a losing poker player - I am 100% certain of that. Good luck to you if it is working for you, but you will get a shock sooner or later.

[seanfaz]

Re: Suited connectors I have been playing for two years, and make money both live and online, across a variety of levels. I have played alot of the big online tournaments, and both GCBPT and GUKPT events, although only 2 (im only 18). I hold my own against top pros live and online, in live poker i have sat with Channing, Mahrenholz, Goodwin, Action Jack, Jeff Kimber, Willie Tann, Julian Thew and many many more online. Just the other day i final tabled against a very tough field in the GUKPT online short handed festival, where i was sat with Action Jack and Jeff Kimber, and knocked Action Jack out. This summer i played a high volume online too. Now in terms of books billy, i have read super system (about 2 years ago), and feel that it is incredibly overrated and quite outdated today. I have read and own; Sklanskys Theory of Poker, both Harrington on Holdems, two of TJ Cloutier's championship series (both excellent), both of Phil Gordon's books, Winning poker tournaments one hand at a time(a new-ish book which is by the far the best available - read it if you haven't already), Dan Negreanu's Power Holdem Strategy, and a few others i can't quite remember right now. I have a great deal of knowledge, and yes, i've played some incredibly tough fields, certainly not the weak games you are suggesting. I'm also not early in my career, i've played one hell of alot of poker already. I still don't feel that you have fully understood what i am saying at all.

[billy the punter]

Re: Suited connectors

I have been playing for two years, and make money both live and online, across a variety of levels. I have played alot of the big online tournaments, and both GCBPT and GUKPT events, although only 2 (im only 18). I hold my own against top pros live and online, in live poker i have sat with Channing, Mahrenholz, Goodwin, Action Jack, Jeff Kimber, Willie Tann, Julian Thew and many many more online. Just the other day i final tabled against a very tough field in the GUKPT online short handed festival, where i was sat with Action Jack and Jeff Kimber, and knocked Action Jack out. This summer i played a high volume online too. Now in terms of books billy, i have read super system (about 2 years ago), and feel that it is incredibly overrated and quite outdated today. I have read and own; Sklanskys Theory of Poker, both Harrington on Holdems, two of TJ Cloutier's championship series (both excellent), both of Phil Gordon's books, Winning poker tournaments one hand at a time(a new-ish book which is by the far the best available - read it if you haven't already), Dan Negreanu's Power Holdem Strategy, and a few others i can't quite remember right now. I have a great deal of knowledge, and yes, i've played some incredibly tough fields, certainly not the weak games you are suggesting. I'm also not early in my career, i've played one hell of alot of poker already. I still don't feel that you have fully understood what i am saying at all.

It's just the cash example on your other thread was .25/50. What I am saying is, your ideas will be fine at that level but you will get torn to shreds when you play at a better level. I was playing the against the names you mention when I was not much older than you and I've played all of them many times. Jackson once visited our private cash game but he went white when he saw the action - he refused to sit. There are many players out (that you haven't heard of) there who have and will tear players like Tann and Goodwin to pieces.