Big Time Tourney Strategy

[glceud]

With a number of PL members about to play in major tournies I think we need to work out the best way to play these things. Got back today from my second attempt at a largeish buy in tourney the GUKPT event in Brighton. I know its not the WSOP or the WPT, but with a prize fund of over £300,000, a first place prize of £100,000 and the final table televised it is certainley a life changing oppurtunity in my eyes. I am 100% sure that the standard in these event is little better than the majority of $10 freezeouts. I know I made a lot of basic mistakes in the UK open last year and hoped to do better here. Here is my 2nd hand from the event. Very early so no reads on any one. seat 1 SB 25 Folds Seat 2 BB 50 Folds Glceud Ks Kc raise to 200 seat 3 folds seat 4 folds seat 5 folds seat 6 folds seat 7 folds seat 8 folds seat 9 folds seat 10 calls Flop Kh 6h 3s Glceud bets 450 seat 10 raises to 900 What would you do next? Any comments appreciated

[GaF]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy I dont think many of us have much experience of big events .... :unsure When I flop a big hand like that I usually bet it. I feel a check stinks "big hand" - if I miss I probably put a half pot continuation bet in - so I try the same here. (If he really wants to find out where he is, he needs to reraise!! If he flat calls, then I probably check the turn to really "sell" weakness and that I just put a continuation bet in post flop) A possible flush draw out there too which I would want him to pay for, though against one opponent, I'm not too scared of a flush draw... I presume this is going to be a bad beat? :sad EDIT - ooops didn't see the post flop betting - how deep are the stacks? Presume you have something like 10,000 chips?

[glceud]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy Yep we both have 10,000 chips, I put in a pot sized bet wanting the call and to be honest was happy enough to get reraised Think the thread is valuable as between the lot of us we do have some experience, but I think if you added up the tourney buyins we would be a rather meaty sum behind.

[voiceofjoe]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy I presume its 10k starting chips ? He's wanting the call here methinks, so either fancies he's ahead now, or is playing for the flush and trying to dissuade a bet from you on the turn. So he gets a free river card. I'm doubting he realises your as strong as you are - I think i'd re-raise and make it another 2000 for him to call.

[Valiant23]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy

I'm doubting he realises your as strong as you are - I think i'd re-raise and make it another 2000 for him to call.

Same here. No sense in allowing him to get his flush cheaply and if he has AK or a set he'll come back over you.... maybe.

[GaF]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy Agree with the others - you have the nuts at the moment - his minimum bet isn't to scare you off - he likes his hand ..... make him pay.... a raise to 2900 seems good here :ok

[glceud]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy Ok, thats exactley what I would do in any internet tourny were if I did end up all in if he came back over the top of me I could just rebuy into another or concentrate on one of the other half dozen I was multitabling. But this was a 4 day tourney with hour long levels so I called his bet ready to make a big bet on the turn But guess what. The turn card was the 4 of hearts What now?

[AJ]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy You need to bet hard into that pot to find out where you are. I'd push a pot sized bet in here. But you should never have been in the situation though, the thread is entitled big time tourney strategy, I think if you try and alter you're game too much you'll come undone. You're holding top set and are ahead, flat calling just because it's a 4 day event is wrong, why give cheap cards, play your normal game and expliot your own strengths, it's what's made you a good player. A large overbet on the flop would be the correct response. I might even have pushed to his reraise, might limit your take from this pot, but it'd send a very clear, don't screw with me message to the rest of the table

[daftpegasus]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy

But you should never have been in the situation though, the thread is entitled big time tourney strategy, I think if you try and alter you're game too much you'll come undone.

I agree 100%. There are times when you need to alter your game but upon entering a big tournament is NOT one of them. Play your normal game, your happy and comfortable with that and if you suck out second hand to someone chasing a draw then so be it - it's the same as online poker in that respect. I'm currently in a transition period in my poker playing where I'm trying to change my style, play more starting hands, etc and I suck big time. However I'm perservering at the moment in the hope I'll come through it a better player. All I'm risking is $10 here and there. Your risking much more on changing your game.

[gavham]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy I don't think it matters what size the tourney is, you should not change your game because its a larger buy in. This for me is straight forward you must go flying back over the top as there are straight and flush opportunities out there.

[GaF]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy Checking is a massively dangerous move, as you found out when the heart falls........I dont think you can be scared of busting out early from a 4 day event - you have to play to positive expectation or you have no chance of winning!!! It's similar to the debate we had a while ago - first hand of WSOP on the BB - the whole table is all in before you and you look down at AA - what do you do? If you're too scared to call pre flop with AA, then you've no chance, IMO of winning the tourney, but I was amazed at how many would fold..... I'm undecided now between check calling (if not too expensive), or betting to find out where I am..... If he has hit his flush/straight, then you aren't out of it - you're about 22% to hit quads or Full House - in which case you would want to see the last card as cheaply as possible......

[glceud]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy "Scared" is the word I was waiting to see. before the turn card I wasnt scared,I was 10 foot tall with balls of gold. I didnt want to price the guy out I wanted to build the pot. Unfortunatley the Heart stopped me dead and I checked. So did the player, so he was either trying to trap me or wasnt drawing for the flush either. I,ll get him on the river I thought. But as if by magic another Heart fell on the river so as you can see I made a right mess of the hand. I checked and so did the player. He turned over pkt aces without the heart and my 3 kings held up(so no bad beat GaF;) ). In hindsight I could have doubled up and set my self up for the whole tourney. . So I think lesson one is dont be scared.

[Valiant23]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy

"Scared" is the word I was waiting to see. before the turn card I wasnt scared

You sure? :unsure

Ok, thats exactley what I would do in any internet tourny were if I did end up all in if he came back over the top of me I could just rebuy into another or concentrate on one of the other half dozen I was multitabling.

I believe I am a better live player than online player but even so when I won a sseat to a £100 tourney at my local club I really believed I was out of my depth and nervous about playing... right up until it started. If you have changed your play from what you see as the correct one then what else could it be? The only difference I can see here depends on the other player and I would suggest that online you probably would have doubled up but in this tourney you may 'only' have collected about 5,000 chips - dependant on the other players ability to get away from the hand. Personally I would suggest that the lesson learnt here is; "Don't underestimate your own ability to play". Incidentally glc, this isn't a slight on your ability at all and I have total respect for that, but you played this hand really crap.:lol

[glceud]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy The reason for stating the thread was to compare deepstacked long level high buy in tournies to the games we play on the internet. Starting with 200 bb,s I see no need to risk more than 20% of them on anything other than a total lock. Perhaps I should treat all tournies like Sodds safety net there was no way I could put the guy on aces but he might have fopped a smaller set or an openended straight or flush draw( or both) or had A/K. I actually put him on k/q after his flat call. The player didnt look Hungarian so I wanted to keep him in the pot and check raise big on the flop. Unfortuatley my balls shriveled on the turn when the heart fell. I think I played the flop bravely but the rest of the hand awfully

[Valiant23]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy Okay then.... you obviously know my place, so I'll stick to it... :unsure Good luck.

[slapdash]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy

The reason for stating the thread was to compare deepstacked long level high buy in tournies to the games we play on the internet. Starting with 200 bb' date='s I see no need to risk more than 20% of them on anything other than a total lock.[/quote'] I agree that with a deep stack, you shouldn't unnecessarily risk a large percentage of your stack early on. But I think it's a mistake to equate the "risk" of your play with the number of chips you're risking. Making a large bet to avoid giving a free card might be "safer" than checking, if you're swapping a significant chance of losing a medium number of chips for a small chance of losing a large number of chips.

[glceud]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy

Okay then.... you obviously know my place, so I'll stick to it... :unsure Good luck.

Wooaaaa, hold on, did you take something I said the wrong way? I respect your opinion hugely I just doubt it is a simple matter of transferring my own internet game to this level

[GaF]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy So you will fold to any large bet if not holding the nuts? :unsure I'm SURE that you know that is losing poker, at any level!!!!

[Dodger]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy It should be noted at this point not to do this in live poker. It is fine, while playing on the internet, to be holding your nuts, but not in a live game.

[BAM]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy

The reason for stating the thread was to compare deepstacked long level high buy in tournies to the games we play on the internet. Starting with 200 bb,s I see no need to risk more than 20% of them on anything other than a total lock. Perhaps I should treat all tournies like Sodds safety net there was no way I could put the guy on aces but he might have fopped a smaller set or an openended straight or flush draw( or both) or had A/K. I actually put him on k/q after his flat call. The player didnt look Hungarian so I wanted to keep him in the pot and check raise big on the flop. Unfortuatley my balls shriveled on the turn when the heart fell. I think I played the flop bravely but the rest of the hand awfully

Great point :ok (and great thread) I had a thread along similar lines and just as Gaf was amazed how many would fold, I was gobsmacked at how many would call. Gaf also made the valid point in post 2 that we dont play this type of tourney enough so good advice would be rare. (which I guess is the whole point of this thread ;)) People who say they will not change their game, need to look at what game they are playing - 1500 chips 12 min blinds? if you took a strategy for that game to a 10000 chips 1 hour blind game you are crazy (forget whether it is live or online) I look at every game I play and adopt a strategy for each game which could be completely different from the previous one (is this wrong? why should I play the same game everytime?) I've been in a few live 10000 chip tourney's and it amazes me how many people spunk off their chips in the first level - why? you have 3 days to play?? the aim of a tournament for me is survival I am not going to risk (nothing about being scared) a good portion of my stack, and deffo no all in's, unless I have the nuts, early on in a tourney of this type. The AA thread was about poker mindset more than strategy it was interesting for me to see who would go all in and who wouldn't. I would have done exactly the same as you GLC and the people who differ with the benefit of hindsight are maybe not being honest with themselves and truly putting themselves in that situation.

[slapdash]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy

I am not going to risk (nothing about being scared) a good portion of my stack' date=' and deffo no all in's, unless I have the nuts, early on in a tourney of this type.[/quote'] He did have the nuts.

[BAM]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy

He did have the nuts.

lets not be silly shall we we are talking about the whole hand and situation

[slapdash]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy

lets not be silly shall we we are talking about the whole hand and situation

I wasn't intending to be silly. I thought you might have misread the hand. The decision people are criticizing is on the flop, when he had the nuts, and he was a favourite over any hand his opponent could have, but only called his opponent's raise. I think calling here is a far more aggressive and dangerous action than making a big raise. I'd be happy (being a wimp) to take the pot right now. And if my opponent calls, I'm in a situation where I know I've made a bet at favourable odds. Situations like that don't come along that often, so I'll take them when I can.

[glceud]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy Ok lets forget about that hand and move on two later, with me on the button player 4 sb calls player 5 bb checks player 6 calls player 7 folds player 8 calls player 9 calls player 10 calls player 1 folds player 2 calls glceud 6s 7s calls (11000+ chips) I'm going to assume nobody minds the limp with suited connectors on the button in a multiway pot flop As 10s 6h player 4 checks player 5 bets 200 player 6 raises to 600 player 8 folds player 9 folds player 10 folds player 2 folds glceud flops bottom pair and a flush draw What now? I will get to my main point after this hand:eek

[BAM]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy

I wasn't intending to be silly. I thought you might have misread the hand. The decision people are criticizing is on the flop, when he had the nuts, and he was a favourite over any hand his opponent could have, but only called his opponent's raise. I think calling here is a far more aggressive and dangerous action than making a big raise. I'd be happy (being a wimp) to take the pot right now. And if my opponent calls, I'm in a situation where I know I've made a bet at favourable odds. Situations like that don't come along that often, so I'll take them when I can.

Thats better :lol when I write a 2500 word assigment I expect better than you to focus on two of them words :tongue2 Again though and thats why I love reading this type of thread there is no original thought it is all more obvious thought. You are critising a play that is neither good or bad (doesnt matter) the thought behind Glceud posts and my posts are totally different. IMO people often forget that NLHE is a game played with 5 out of 7 cards. You may look at that situation and say you have the nuts I would look at it and say he has a 1 in 3 chance of outdrawing me, lets keep the pot small and see how the hand develops (it is too early in the tournament to be in a situation like this and lose a lot of chips). To me every hand doesn't matter for the first 3/4 levels just play ABC poker and you have not got the nuts until all 5 cards are on that board. I evaluate where I am after these early stages then adopt a strategy to get me to the next point I want to be in a tournament ( which might mean re-raising in this situation) If you want to evaluate that hand - a large re -raise would have probably been met with call or maybe another raise, now you deffo have him on a draw do you want to risk more chips or do you flat call?

[GaF]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy

You may look at that situation and say you have the nuts I would look at it and say he has a 1 in 3 chance of outdrawing me' date=' lets keep the pot small and see how the hand develops (it is [b']too early in the tournament to be in a situation like this and lose a lot of chips).

Interesting - If I put my opponent on a draw, then I view it as even more essential to bet big - big enough that if he calls, he is making a mistake and has negative expectation.... by betting I control the odds he is offered .... if he has a 1 in 3 chance of hitting, then if I offer him 2-1, it is break even expectation for us both if he calls (ignoring any implied odds) - to allow him to make a mistake, I have to bet big enough that he has less than 2-1 .... the shorter the odds he calls with (i.e. the bigger my bet) in his draw, the bigger his mistake in calling. Of course I also have fold equity which adds to the value of a big bet (and against that, I'm offering implied odds, but I'm offering them anyway....) If you keep the pot small and dont bet big enough, then you are not giving your opponent the opportunity to make an error .....

[slapdash]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy

If you want to evaluate that hand - a large re -raise would have probably been met with call or maybe another raise, now you deffo have him on a draw do you want to risk more chips or do you flat call?

I'm not going to stop raising until he stops raising or I run out of chips.

[slapdash]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy

Of course I also have fold equity which adds to the value of a big bet (and against that' date=' I'm offering implied odds, but I'm offering them anyway....)[/quote'] You offer him smaller implied odds if you raise. If you only call, you're offering him infinite implied odds. He has to pay nothing for the chance of winning more of your stack if he hits.

[glceud]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy

I'm not going to stop raising until he stops raising or I run out of chips.

Thats fair enough if you had unlimited ammount of £1000 buy in tournies to play and an unlmited time to do so, which brings us back to playing with scared money. I just cant see the need to risk my tourney on even a one to three on shot when I still have over a 100 bbs in my stack, which is why I called hoping for anything other than a heart on the turn. If it hadnt been a heart I would have busted him on the turn, although he did tell me afterwords I could have done so on the flop.

[robilaruk]

Re: Big Time Tourney Strategy breathe deeply for at least 10 secs then make it about 3K to go and call the shove Damo

seat 1 SB 25 Folds Seat 2 BB 50 Folds Glceud Ks Kc raise to 200 seat 5 folds seat 6 folds seat 7 folds seat 3 folds seat 4 folds seat 8 folds seat 9 folds seat 10 calls Flop Kh 6h 3s Glceud bets 450 seat 10 raises to 900 What would you do next? Any comments appreciated