Good all round game?

[Nade]

I just impressed myself with the diversity shown in Hold'em NL as after the customary cash game at 25/50c where a nice profit was made i moved on to the heads up game 1v1 which i hadn't tried for a while but used to win at consistently. $2 games won two in a row comfortably and then to complete the trio i joined a STT for $2 which i haven't been too successful at recently, mainly play cash now anyway, and i won it for a cool $10 :clap Back to back games of varying challenges all successful and i'm delighted to now be competitive on all fronts. The main omission from the list is the MTT which is no doubt my weak point so i looked for a buy-in for under $5 but none at this time, but will look to join one tomorrow morning and no doubt crash and burn, but it is possible to win consistently at them, just look at the MTT winnings day after day on the other board! i just have no idea in that format tbh. Was wondering what other peoples all round games were like and where they could or want to improve. All round could include other poker games such as omaha etc. as i see a lot of pros on FTP play omaha but on TV play texas hold'em, but for me omaha just doesn't look as good as hold'em though i haven't even looked at the rules for it!...

[DAC]

Re: Good all round game? I'm consistently decent at STTs and do well in MTTs I completely suck at cash which pees me off no end.

[GaF]

Re: Good all round game? I feel MTT's are my biggest strength, followed by Cash and my weakest is STTs. This surprises me somewhat as I view one of my biggest competences in poker being the way I can move through the gears as required. That is what I view as one of the most important requirements in an STT..... My weaknesses, that I would like to improve are my post flop play (I have always modelled my game on TAG, where post flop decisions are often quite easy and straightforward) and my observation and awareness of my opponents. I also want to develop my varieties.....I've managed ok in some variety tournies, but that has been through stack management rather than a good understanding of the variety. I think I need to get a solid Omaha cash game under my belt.......

[GB80]

Re: Good all round game? I think I'm pretty decent at MTT's, and I'd say I about break even at STT's, but I can't do cash. I've tried loads of times, and normally have a good first few weeks but then lose it all. I can't really understand why, but it must be something I change after a certain period of winning but I haven't a clue what.

[H-Bomb]

Re: Good all round game? I'm usually very consistent in cash games, don't play many STTs, but when I have I've done well and on-line MTTs are the work of the devil in my eyes. B&M tournaments are not so bad, I've done quite well in the past, but I can't get the hang of them on-line. That being said, I think my game is suited to cash games and STTs a lot more than MTTs. As long as I'm aware of that, I can deal with it if and when I see fit.

[Nade]

Re: Good all round game? MTT completely infuriate me!!!!! Chatted with GaF about this elsewhere but to say they are skillful is a joke imo. Just entered one, a re-buy for $1 because i want to lose the minimum and that's what i did. it's impossible to get far in MTT without decent cards and tonnes of luck it's as simple as that. At the start i went all in with Kings a load of people called and i was fave pre-flop but in the end lost to trip queens, the guy with the trips got over 10k in chips and as i speak is near the top of the leader board after the first break - that COULD have been me. Then i limp with a king the flop comes 55K, someone with 10k in chips goes all in and then the next person calls, i fold knowing that the fool with 10k will have a 5 because that's what happens in MTT, they do have a 5 and double up to 20k. Incredible. After the re-buy period where i had bought 2 re-buys i ended up going out with bulletts. I raised pre-flop 6times the blinds and was called by the chip leader on the table and another person. The flop comes 1055, i go all in hoping to push them out, they both call the turn is a rag, and they bet some more, the river is another 10, they bet some more and turn the cards over low and behold the chip leader had 10,K!! You couldn't make it up. I was out in 380th out of 690. MTT are a joke and i'll stand by it forever.

[Crouch Potato]

Re: Good all round game? I think it's safe to say I'm quite consistant across all variants, and by that I mean I'm equally shit at them all :loon I've only been playing cash games a bit over a month but I'm enjoying the relatively slow tempo of them and the patient nature. I'm a horrible reader of players and so in tournaments where action is forced I almost inevitably suck, as evidenced in the PL MTT last night where I successfully managed to run into AA twice in 5 mins :lol

[glceud]

Re: Good all round game?

MTT completely infuriate me!!!!! Chatted with GaF about this elsewhere but to say they are skillful is a joke imo. Just entered one, a re-buy for $1 because i want to lose the minimum and that's what i did. it's impossible to get far in MTT without decent cards and tonnes of luck it's as simple as that.

Well if that is the case why do certain players continue to make decent finishes? I would say in cash games you need decent cards but the fear of other players in MTT's makes bluffing, bullying and buying pots a lot easier. Regarding the rebuy tourney you went out with pkt aces, it was your final rebuy so I guess the chip leader regarded a 6xthe bb raise as nothing more than a minor irritance, and in relation to his stack all he did was limp in with k/10. Seriousley suggest any one who is not prepared to rebuy and add on straight away at least twice should stick to freezeouts. The players with the bottomless pockets might look like fools to the inexperienced but they realise the importance of chip stack size and are willing to gamble to achieve that.

[Nade]

Re: Good all round game?

Well if that is the case why do certain players continue to make decent finishes? I would say in cash games you need decent cards but the fear of other players in MTT's makes bluffing, bullying and buying pots a lot easier. Regarding the rebuy tourney you went out with pkt aces, it was your final rebuy so I guess the chip leader regarded a 6xthe bb raise as nothing more than a minor irritance, and in relation to his stack all he did was limp in with k/10. Seriousley suggest any one who is not prepared to rebuy and add on straight away at least twice should stick to freezeouts. The players with the bottomless pockets might look like fools to the inexperienced but they realise the importance of chip stack size and are willing to gamble to achieve that.

The fact that he hit the two 10's and thus FH to beat my pocket aces sums up MTT to me, he was hitting every hand as was the other person with a big stack, no skill involved they were just hitting hand after hand through the cards that were coming out and it happens every time :lol

[GaF]

Re: Good all round game? ANYTHING can happen in one hand .... it can happen in cash games as much as tourneys ..... The main difference is stack management (knowing what gear to be in) - this is IMO the main factor differentiating those who can make a profit on MTTs and those who cant......

[RandR]

Re: Good all round game?

MTT are a joke and i'll stand by it forever.

No, $1 rebuy MTTs are a joke. In fact, pretty much all rebuys suck. Try a deep stacks freezeout and you'll have plenty of time to outplay your opponents.

[Nade]

Re: Good all round game?

No, $1 rebuy MTTs are a joke. In fact, pretty much all rebuys suck. Try a deep stacks freezeout and you'll have plenty of time to outplay your opponents.

Point taken. The catch 22 is though that if i don't think i'm good at MTT then why would i pay a lot to enter one, but i'll never know if i'm good at one until i do pay serious money to enter! Maybe if i'm feeling flush sometime this week i'll enter a $10 :unsure Re. the improvement side of my game i would add that getting the most from pots is a big down point and also laying down big hands, though i'm getting better at it!

[GaF]

Re: Good all round game? The structure doesn't have to be symptomatic of the size of the buy in!!! Keep your eyes peeled - there are cheap deep stacked MTT's out there :ok

[Nade]

Re: Good all round game?

The structure doesn't have to be symptomatic of the size of the buy in!!! Keep your eyes peeled - there are cheap deep stacked MTT's out there :ok

Yeh ok keep your alan's on ;) I just meant that, in reference to RandR's point, that in higher buy-in tournies i'd have more chance to outplay the opposition where as in lower buy-ins they are way more loose i assume! I'll have a look though as you say :ok

[GaF]

Re: Good all round game? Hmmm ...... I disagree strongly with that (though there are quite a number on here who agree with you, so what I'm about to say is just my opinion - there will be someone else along shortly to give there opinion :ok) At all levels, you have good players and bad players. As you move up the buy ins however the proportion of good players increases..... Your argument is that you cant beat he lower levels because there are too many bad players, so you will play against a higher standard of player as you think that you can beat them. How? If you cannot get an edge over bad players, how on earth will you get an edge against better players? You say that you cannot beat loose players - why not? If you cannot beat players who keep putting their money in when behind, how are you going to beat players who put their money in when ahead?

[Nade]

Re: Good all round game?

Hmmm ...... I disagree strongly with that (though there are quite a number on here who agree with you, so what I'm about to say is just my opinion - there will be someone else along shortly to give there opinion :ok) At all levels, you have good players and bad players. As you move up the buy ins however the proportion of good players increases..... Your argument is that you cant beat he lower levels because there are too many bad players, so you will play against a higher standard of player as you think that you can beat them. How? If you cannot get an edge over bad players, how on earth will you get an edge against better players? You say that you cannot beat loose players - why not? If you cannot beat players who keep putting their money in when behind, how are you going to beat players who put their money in when ahead?

Firstly it's lower level MTT i can't beat, lower level cash games i consistently beat, but in MTT you have one chance, one bad beat and bang you're gone. I'll refer you to Crouchies thread where in cash games i've posted a tonne of my bad beats against poorer opposition simply because they don't lay down hands and this is amplified in MTT because as i say you only have one chance so it's quite possible to go all in pre-flop with aces and go out to 7,2 o/s because that's the nature of the level, but that wouldn't happen at the higher standard as i've said many times you put in a bet at higher levels and you know where you stand in a pot, where as at lower levels you can bet as much as you like but people still won't lay their crap hands down - that is why it's hard to beat low levels.

[GaF]

Re: Good all round game? Are you maybe being too aggressive in low level MTT's? Against Loose Aggressive Players, the time is right to start playing passively UNTIL you really hit...... If the players are THAT bad, you cannot assume you have any fold equity and should never bluff them .... play big pots against them when you have big hands and play small pots against them when you have small hands...... Your edge will never be greater than against the very worst players, assuming your own game is versatile enough to adjust to counteract the way they are playing....

[happyhornet]

Re: Good all round game? GaF has somewhat stolen my thunder there:@ :loon . At a low level MTT with lots of LAG play, you can afford to sit and wait for a decent hand. When you do have one, play it hard, and more often than not in the early stages of an MTT you will get paid. They will call your AA with any pair, AK, AQ, AJ, sometimes worse. Sure they'll suck out on now and again, that's poker, but that's the way to play against these people. In my humble opinion that is!!

[robilaruk]

Re: Good all round game? I agree with this post 100% post of the day for me :clap :clap :clap Damo ps if you want a fairly good tourny for next to nowt - the £1000 guarentee on Boss for a $1.10 entry is excellent - 2K in chips 12 min blinds so plenty of play if you are patient

Hmmm ...... I disagree strongly with that (though there are quite a number on here who agree with you, so what I'm about to say is just my opinion - there will be someone else along shortly to give there opinion :ok) At all levels, you have good players and bad players. As you move up the buy ins however the proportion of good players increases..... Your argument is that you cant beat he lower levels because there are too many bad players, so you will play against a higher standard of player as you think that you can beat them. How? If you cannot get an edge over bad players, how on earth will you get an edge against better players? You say that you cannot beat loose players - why not? If you cannot beat players who keep putting their money in when behind, how are you going to beat players who put their money in when ahead?

[robilaruk]

Re: Good all round game? completely reverse logic to me what do you mean by higher level? Damo

the level' date=' but that wouldn't happen at the higher standard as i've said many times you put in a bet at higher levels and you know where you stand in a pot, where as at lower levels you can bet as much as you like but people still won't lay their crap hands down - that is why it's hard to beat low levels.[/quote']

[Nade]

Re: Good all round game?

completely reverse logic to me what do you mean by higher level? Damo

Higher level means all sorts. For example 'higher level' to me is 10/20c upwards on ipoker network but the equivalent level on Pkr is of a shocking standard. Essentially i explained my 'higher level' point by saying that when you bet into a pot you know where you are in a hand but at a 'lower level' you still have no idea. It's all in my opinion and everyone else disagrees so fighting a lost cause.

[GaF]

Re: Good all round game?

Essentially i explained my 'higher level' point by saying that when you bet into a pot you know where you are in a hand but at a 'lower level' you still have no idea.

Have a look at some of the hands in TheMole's thread ..... this is a higher level than most of us will ever get the chance to play at - but the play is so tricky, that I have no idea what people have at all .... it's just over my head!!! Put these players in a 10c/20c game and tell them to play the same way and they'll be like the biggest muppets at the table!!! (But they clearly aren't!!)

[robilaruk]

Re: Good all round game? still dont see the difference and I don't think you are fighting a lost cause, am trying to figure out your theory and how it can benefit me you bet your two pair at a 300/600 game and get called you bet you two pair in a 5c/10c game and get called how do you know where you are? all you know is that you have 2 pair - you don't know what the other fella has, all you can do is make guesses based on previous action in this hand and previous hands and what you know about the player - are they tricky trappers who check call with trips, or gamblers, who are calling with middle pair hoping to hit, or they believe you ahve nothing and are going to try to take the pot away from you on the turn Thats my point really, I generally play STT's and there are muppets on the $109 as there are on the $5.50's, my BR can attest to that :puke It depends on your reads and knowledge of players, not whether they are a womble or not who wont let 44 go on an AKJ board after a PF raise and pot bet on the flop etc just my thoughts Damo

on Pkr is of a shocking standard. Essentially i explained my 'higher level' point by saying that when you bet into a pot you know where you are in a hand but at a 'lower level' you still have no idea. It's all in my opinion and everyone else disagrees so fighting a lost cause.

[Nade]

Re: Good all round game?

still dont see the difference and I don't think you are fighting a lost cause, am trying to figure out your theory and how it can benefit me you bet your two pair at a 300/600 game and get called you bet you two pair in a 5c/10c game and get called how do you know where you are? all you know is that you have 2 pair - you don't know what the other fella has, all you can do is make guesses based on previous action in this hand and previous hands and what you know about the player - are they tricky trappers who check call with trips, or gamblers, who are calling with middle pair hoping to hit, or they believe you ahve nothing and are going to try to take the pot away from you on the turn Thats my point really, I generally play STT's and there are muppets on the $109 as there are on the $5.50's, my BR can attest to that :puke It depends on your reads and knowledge of players, not whether they are a womble or not who wont let 44 go on an AKJ board after a PF raise and pot bet on the flop etc just my thoughts Damo

It's just the individuals interpretation of the hand i guess but i'll give an example of what i'd be thinking. Say it's a 25/50c cash game on Titan and the players are generally tight and i'm dealt JJ. I'd raise pre-flop in early position to about $2 to make sure that either everyone folds their hands, including marginal hands and so anyone that calls you know has a solid hand. Ok, two people call to make it $6 in the pot and the flop then comes Q59 with no flush draw. It's now essential to bet to know where i am, i'd bet about $3 because it's enough to scare someone with 10's for example but also if someone calls i sense a draw or Q, if someone raises then you can assume you're beat and fold so the bet is a good one. With a call it's really down to your gut instinct over whether you're beaten or not and what you want to do on the turn. A different thing i like to do is if i'm in late position and have a decent hand and i'm raised on the flop i like to re-raise even if i think i'm behind on the flop, because if an over card then comes on the turn and you raise again then it scares the opposition because not only have you re-raised with a queen on the board but you raise again with a higher card on the board they'll assume they're beat (straight from phil hellmuth) These situations assume you're playing with decent players but as i say if you're playing with less than average players then you don't know where you are as i have just found out on Pkr i swear this literally just happend... I limp in with 8's in early position the flop comes Qd 5s 8s. One person before me bets 75c i raise to $4 with my set trying to blow off the flush draw, the next person goes all in with their last $4.46 i along with two others call. Now i'm thinking shizzle what do these three have?? :( The turn comes Ah, no flush yet so i push my last $24.83 all in hoping someone had something like QA or pushes the flush draws out as there's only one card left to come. Well, they both called! Now i really am bricking it thinking someone has a higher set, so i wait for them to turn over their cards... two out of the three were going for the flush draw and the other had two pair queens and fives. The last card comes 2c and i've just won a pot of over $75 :) (If you want to see the hand i'll post if requested) That example highlights how playing with 'lesser' players makes it so hard to put them on a hand, as you'd have thought at least one of them would have also had a set betting that much and one even put their last $25 hoping to hit a spade on the river! something you rarely sse a 'decent' player do. Anyway i'm confused as to what point i'm supposed to be making here and my head hurts :lol

[GaF]

Re: Good all round game? To demonstrate that there is an edge in low stakes MTT's, look no further than tonights focus game .... PL entries were in the low twenties ..... 65 entrants overall - we had about 33% of the field. It was a $3 satellite .... top 8 paid ....5 of those prizes went to PL'rs .... so about 33% of the field has filled over 60% of the prize positions - one off this means nothing, but it happens consistently when we enter low value games ..... surely this proves that we have an edge over the field? And that solid poker wins out? Sure we get bad beats, some of us get outdrawn and dont make it - but that's poker - WE'RE BEATING THE GAME!!!!

[Nade]

Re: Good all round game?

To demonstrate that there is an edge in low stakes MTT's' date=' look no further than tonights focus game .... PL entries were in the low twenties ..... 65 entrants overall - we had about 33% of the field. It was a $3 satellite .... top 8 paid ....5 of those prizes went to PL'rs .... so about 33% of the field has filled over 60% of the prize positions - one off this means nothing, but it happens consistently when we enter low value games ..... surely this proves that we have an edge over the field? And that solid poker wins out? Sure we get bad beats, some of us get outdrawn and dont make it - but that's poker - WE'RE BEATING THE GAME!!!![/quote'] Honestly i have the upmost respect for you multi-tablers who consistently win as i see in the threads on the other board it's the same names over and over again and i have absolutely no idea how you manage it! I suppose i try and cover my weakness in this area by blaming bad beats and other players but as i've said before it must be due to skill but i have had rotten luck in the MTT's i enter Any chance of you PL'ers writing a MTT book? .... :dude

[GaF]

Re: Good all round game? lol - If I won't waste my time writing a book ..... I'd just plagiarise the Harrington on Holdem series - I presume that you've read the "bible"?

[Nade]

Re: Good all round game?

lol - If I won't waste my time writing a book ..... I'd just plagiarise the Harrington on Holdem series - I presume that you've read the "bible"?

Ermmm, no, i ermm, lost it, i mean, my,.. dog... err... Off to e-bay... :sad

[RandR]

Re: Good all round game?

lol - If I won't waste my time writing a book ..... I'd just plagiarise the Harrington on Holdem series - I presume that you've read the "bible"?

Agreed (and I've said it before on here). If you read all 3 volumes of this thoroughly and apply it, you will be in the top 10% of low-stakes (less than $30) tourney players. You will also be better than me, because I don't re-read it often enough, and end up slipping into bad habits. Dan Harrington - :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy. The man talks sense!

[Crouch Potato]

Re: Good all round game? Out of curiosity, how many other poker variants can people play? Personally, I've never played limit hold'em and would have no ****ing idea how to play razz, 7 card stud etc.