AK Strategy first hand in tourney?

[GaF]

You're UTG with AKo in the first hand of a tourney (tonights $100 buy in $100,000 gtd on Mansion) ...... How do you play it, post flop, against one opponent when you missed? I almost always make a continuation bet, but seldom seem to make it work ..... here I was reraised and folded - what would people have done differently? What other options were there? Only other option I can see is to check fold, but that just seems so weak (but less expensive ;) )..... I'm happy with my check raise pre flop - I'm not interested in a UTG raise to try and win blinds of 30!!!! Being first hand of the tourney, I have NO information on any of my opponents.... HAND HISTORY DETAILS ***** Hand History for Game 20809022 ***** 057 $100,000 Guaranteed Hand start time: 2007-02-28 20:02:06 Seat 5 is the button Total number of players: 9 Seat 1: canaryace1(2,500.00) Seat 2: MedusaTouch(2,500.00) Seat 3: SnusOchMus(2,500.00) Seat 4: poker dog x(2,500.00) Seat 5: MarinaY(2,500.00) Seat 6: Sofia_27(2,500.00) Seat 7: ve6ticata(2,500.00) Seat 8: Telepe(2,500.00) Seat 9: apprentice(2,500.00) Current Number of Players: 9 apprentice start position: 2,500.00 Telepe start position: 2,500.00 ve6ticata start position: 2,500.00 Sofia_27 start position: 2,500.00 MarinaY start position: 2,500.00 poker dog x start position: 2,500.00 SnusOchMus start position: 2,500.00 MedusaTouch start position: 2,500.00 canaryace1 start position: 2,500.00 (Sofia_27) posts small blind (10) ve6ticata posts big blind (20) Telepe is dealt down [Ah Kc] Telepe calls (20) apprentice folds canaryace1 calls (20) MedusaTouch folds SnusOchMus folds poker dog x folds MarinaY raises to (60) (Sofia_27) folds ve6ticata times out and folds Telepe raises to (230) canaryace1 folds MarinaY calls (230) flop: [6c 9d Qs] Telepe bets (300) MarinaY raises to (680) Telepe folds MarinaY is refunded (380) MarinaY wins (1110) MarinaY mucks canaryace1 end position: 2,480.00 MedusaTouch end position: 2,500.00 SnusOchMus end position: 2,500.00 poker dog x end position: 2,500.00 MarinaY end position: 3,080.00 Sofia_27 end position: 2,490.00 ve6ticata end position: 2,480.00 Telepe end position: 1,970.00 apprentice end position: 2,500.00 Hand end time: 2007-02-28 20:03:43

[spireitedaz]

Re: AK Strategy first hand in tourney? Here's my five pence worth for what it's worth. Never played in a biggish tourney, like this but I'd have just flat called and seen a flop, played it like a drawing hand. You said you didn't want to raise UTG to win blinds of 30. Therefore surely a raise to 230 to win a few extra chips at this point of tournament is hardly worth it. If he'd reraised then I assume you'd have folded ? By end of hand you'd lost 20% of stack with Ace high. Saying that I make Malcolm (the Rock) Harwood look like a maniac :rollin Doubt this had worked on this occasion, but I've been having more luck with checking the flop (when I miss with AK) and betting the turn (after I still miss) and taking pot uncontested. (Not in focus games though :loon )

[GaF]

Re: AK Strategy first hand in tourney? er yes - you're right, If he'd gone all in or something - I'd have probably folded - I don want to go broke first hand in a tourney with AK...... I can see the arguments for a flat call, but it's just so passive, AND out of position....... Felt I played well in this tourney in the end, until I went bust with 88 in the SB against the BB (all in pre flop, called by AQ) - not sure what I think of the way I played that - I was HU, but do I want to bust out with 88 when not really under much pressure? :unsure

[voiceofjoe]

Re: AK Strategy first hand in tourney? I'm not sure i'm good enough to give you advice :notworthy but ... The limp UTG is fine by me, especially when the blinds are low. I would have just called the weak raise - it may be a trap bet, but your hand is strong. The re-raise is way to big overbet IMO 2 1/2 times the pot against a trappy raise ? - all for 100 chips. Out of position its difficult, but by limping in i'm looking to get callers and out play them on the flop. I've just been reading a very very interesting book on Tournament play by Eric Lindgren - he encourages a lot of postflop play in the early stages of the tournament - and one really interesting piece of advice he gave, which is probably relevant here, is that after the flop the more draws you've got then the bigger pots you should be playing. In this instance, given the hands that I put your opponent on with the trappy raise, then you are probably drawing very,very thin - in which case keep the pot small The only hand I could put her on that you are beating would be AJ ??

[Dave488]

Re: AK Strategy first hand in tourney? Like you Gaf have played in a few of these and do tend to find that the players do seem to play back at you alot in the early stages when the blinds are low, which is strange as they seem to want to put the tournament at risk at such an early stage. As for the ak I think i would have played it more like a drawing hand in the early stages and have just called the raise and had a look at the flop (i know it is a weak play), but in the early stages I really want my hand to connect so i have a better idea of where I am. If i miss the flop then I probably check. First hand i'm not willing to commit alot of chips till i have a hand. As for your final hand the 88, was watching at the time, if i remember correctly you raised to 1200 from the SB, he raised to 3600, I think I am right in saying you both had similar chips around 8000 i think, I know you had him covered by a few hundred chips. I think you could have laid your 88 down, the problem is I think he was pot committed, he had virtually half his stack in. What do put him on, either 2 over cards or worse an overpair the majority of the time, admittedly he could be doing it with a lower pair or ace rag. In the cold light of day I think you knew you didn't have to risk nearly all your chips on what was probably a 50/50 at best, when as you say you weren't under any pressure and had 20 bb. You are far too good a player and would have definately found better situations than this to put your chips in. Anyway thats my 2 pence worth.:ok

[robilaruk]

Re: AK Strategy first hand in tourney? call the 60 PF and check the flop not worth getting involved to much yet Damo

[GaF]

Re: AK Strategy first hand in tourney? Cheers guys - concensus seems to be to slow down a bit with AK early .....

was watching at the time, if i remember correctly you

Cheers mate - here's the hand history .... think you're right - could/should maybe have got away from it .... I struggle there though - always feel the BB is just overdefending his BB, and often he is, but often he isn't!!!! Is tough to lay down a pocket pair Heads Up!!!!

HAND HISTORY DETAILS ***** Hand History for Game 20817209 ***** 057 $100,000 Guaranteed Hand start time: 2007-02-28 21:41:04 Seat 2 is the button Total number of players: 8 Seat 1: _pike_(3,890.00) Seat 2: rhapsody(1,462.00) Seat 3: Telepe(8,222.00) Seat 4: Seat 5: Puropoker(7,753.00) Seat 6: TODD BEN(5,525.00) Seat 7: Earl Roger(7,430.00) Seat 8: x-LoPo(9,370.00) Seat 9: happi66(7,590.00) Current Number of Players: 8 happi66 start position: 7,590.00 x-LoPo start position: 9,370.00 Earl Roger start position: 7,430.00 TODD BEN start position: 5,525.00 Puropoker start position: 7,753.00 Telepe start position: 8,222.00 rhapsody start position: 1,462.00 _pike_ start position: 3,890.00 rhapsody posts ante (10) Telepe posts ante (10) Puropoker posts ante (10) TODD BEN posts ante (10) Earl Roger posts ante (10) x-LoPo posts ante (10) happi66 posts ante (10) _pike_ posts ante (10) Telepe posts small blind (100) Puropoker posts big blind (200) Telepe is dealt down [8h 8d] TODD BEN folds Earl Roger folds x-LoPo folds happi66 folds _pike_ folds rhapsody folds Telepe raises to (680) Puropoker raises to (3680) Telepe raises to (8212) and is all-in Puropoker calls (7743) and is all-in Telepe is refunded (469) Telepe shows [8h 8d] Puropoker shows [As Qs] flop: [9c Qd Kh] turn: [5c] river: [4h] Telepe shows [8h 8d] for a pair of eights TODD BEN says: "nhs" Puropoker shows [As Qs] for a pair of queens Puropoker wins (15566) _pike_ end position: 3,880.00 rhapsody end position: 1,452.00 Telepe end position: 469.00 Puropoker end position: 15,566.00 TODD BEN end position: 5,515.00 Earl Roger end position: 7,420.00 x-LoPo end position: 9,360.00 happi66 end position: 7,580.00 Hand end time: 2007-02-28 21:42:09

[happyhornet]

Re: AK Strategy first hand in tourney? GaF, What you did with the Eights was, without doubt, what most of us would have done in the same circumstance.:ok

[spireitedaz]

Re: AK Strategy first hand in tourney? I'd have laid the 8's down with the hefty reraise at that particular point of the tournament. You still had over 35 big blinds left, and although you got your chips in with the best of it, nearly half of time you'll lose the race, and there was still the possibility you were a major dog. I doubt he'd raise so much with a weak ace or smaller pair, unless you'd seen evidence of this before. Had he defended his big blind so strongly before for example ? Although it wouldn't have applied in this case (cause it was blind on blind), what I will do on occasions is limp with the pocket 8's and call a raise (to a value I may have raised to) I believe this adds a deception element to my hand, and I still get to see a flop, whereas getting reraised when holding 8's after raising, majority of occasion would fold. In both cases my chip stack would be the same, but I'd chance to see a flop and could hit my trips to bust say a TPTK hand, or indeed from texture of flop still had a good idea i was best.

[GaF]

Re: AK Strategy first hand in tourney? Sorry Daz - don't like flat calling at all - you lose any fold equity and that is worth so much (apart from the fact you can be ahead and are letting him draw 3 cards free to go ahead too)!!! I think I had to put the initial raise in - the blinds are worth winning, so I'm happy enough if I take it down - I dont want to encourage action. Having raised, and been reraised, then IF I knew his cards, I'd have no choice but to call I think - I am getting odds against and am odds on to hit..... the reason for folding is the probability that he has a pocket pair greater than 88. I cannot recall any specifics on this opponent..... I'm actually coming more to the conclusion that I was right to play it the way I did :unsure (the fact that I lost the hand is irellevent - I want to know the right decision for long term success.....)

[Valiant23]

Re: AK Strategy first hand in tourney? Part A (AK) You (imo) overplayed the cards and although I haven't played in these tournaments if there is a lot of re-raising going on it could be that people want to establish they're not the table pussies or that they 'own' the table. Personally I have avoided lots of trouble by folding AK to pre-flop raises and really should remember that when I don't. The beauty of the fold is if he's got a monster he wins practically nothing, and if he was bluffing you're portraying yourself as passive, which could pay off later when you really have a hand. Part B (88) in SB. i think you have to look at it in context. If YOU had the AQ and he the 88, would you feel annoyed if the 88 had held up and put you out? Personally I just think thats one of those classic 'thats poker' situations and you should do exactly the same again next time. :ok

[Dave488]

Re: AK Strategy first hand in tourney?

Cheers guys - concensus seems to be to slow down a bit with AK early ..... Cheers mate - here's the hand history .... think you're right - could/should maybe have got away from it .... I struggle there though - always feel the BB is just overdefending his BB, and often he is, but often he isn't!!!! Is tough to lay down a pocket pair Heads Up!!!!

Your right he could be quite easily be just defending his big blind and drawing a line in the sand so to speak. The problem is even if he has a marginal hand like k9o your still only 50/50. I actual thought the blinds were at 200 / 400, but as they were only 100 / 200 and you had only 700 chips committed, less than 10% of your stack, you still have 37 * BB, are above average stack and are under no pressure. Agree there is no point flat calling, as your either playing this hand or your not, but as he has put half his stack in, i don't think you have any fold enquity left, as even if he has a very marginal hand he is getting 3-1 odds to call your all in and must call. Which brings me back to the question do you really want to put your tournament life on the line on a 50/50 shot, when you are in such a good position. As I think tournament play is alot more about survival and waiting for favourable situations. There is no question that if you were short stacked and in real trouble your going to play the 88 heads up for all your chips. As Mr. V says this is a classic poker situation, which is why it is worth discussing this so much. I am not saying you played it badly by any means, as I may well of done the same myself, and have done many times in the same situation. What I am saying I suppose is do you think your expectation for doing well in the tournament is higher by playing this 50/50 hand in doubling up half the time and be virtually elimated the rest or would your expectation for the tournament be higher by folding this hand and waiting for better situations to increase your stack?:ok

[Valiant23]

Re: AK Strategy first hand in tourney? Fair point Dave, but would you call for all of your stack with K9? Would anyone? I'm not sure how pertinent these stats are but I read somewhere that if you push from SB there is a 5% chance of being called if you push all in (and 11% from the button). I would argue that if thats the case you would need to have a serious hand to call. I'm stressing the call of the all in because I think thats important regarding the Gap Concept. Add to the fact that AQ looks better than it actually is and imho it isn't Gaf who played it poorly but the other player.

[Dave488]

Re: AK Strategy first hand in tourney? I not saying Gaf played it poorly, but even if the the player had K9o he had put half his stack in, so when Gaf went all in I don't think he can fold as he is getting 3-1 for his money, which is great odds, and I am sure Gaf would call that if he was in that position. So basically i suppose my point is that i think Gaf is far too good a player to want to put his tournament on the line in a 50/50 confrontation in that situation when he was comfortable. Totally different story if he was short stacked. It is also very easy for me to talk about this at my own leisure, but in the same position as Gaf, probably multi-tabling aswell, in the heat of battle it is a totally different story and I honestly admit I probably would have done exactly the same myself. Very interesting to discuss these situations though afterwards to hopefully prepare more for when the next time it arrives. Has made me think about it, which can only be good as a poker player.:ok Interesting footnote is that i was playing the 100k again tonight and I managed to lose half my stack early with ak, just proves how much I have learnt.:wall :wall

[GaF]

Re: AK Strategy first hand in tourney? I'm not taking anything personally ... I WANT to hear all arguments on both sides :ok If someone does want to say I played it carp, I'm happy to hear them say it (and hope I'll learn from it)..... Still not convinced what I'd do in the same situation again though ..... :unsure

[GaF]

Re: AK Strategy first hand in tourney? Was waiting for PNL to have Cas and/or Dr Tom and was going to send this in to see what they said (they are the two who's opinions I think are best) - tonight is Saimon Trumper and I think he is quite good too, so I've sent an email in tonight - lets wee what they have to say ;)

[Dave488]

Re: AK Strategy first hand in tourney? Did they read it out Gaf? As was out yesterday and didn't see the show.

[GaF]

Re: AK Strategy first hand in tourney? No :sad Obviously too challenging for them :tongue2 Will send it in again when Cas/DrTom are on :ok