AA Problem?

[Valiant23]

Tuesday night at the casino with MCFC. Jones12345+1 and Pocket Lady. Levels are 20 minutes long. Starting stacks are 8,000. I think at that stage there were 5 tables of 11 (once 5 went we changed to 10 seat tables obviously). Level 2 (50/100) 2 players are involved in this hand, however my read on the table is there are a few solid live players who prefer rebuys. one complete novice, the guy who owns the Poker Nutz league and a couple of young players, one of which is the villain. He's got his peaked cap on and is extremely quiet at the table. He has played about 3 hands at this time. Villain (not me ;)): UTG Hero (me):Seat 4 UTG limps for 100 no other callers I have AA and raise 4 x BB. I know that the other live players will respect my raise as I play pretty tight even in the rebuys and they will immediately put me on a real hand (AA/KK/QQ) etc. This suits me too cos I don't want them in there. all fold to UTG who calls. The pot now stands at 950 Flop 8 8 6 rainbow. What do you do? (a) In the casino (b) Online :unsure

[georgej]

Re: AA Problem? i'd have to go with 4xBB after flop on both. He may have Ax and fold, but at least you're telling him you definately have a hand. Still not enough put into the pot that you can't walk away from it.

[H-Bomb]

Re: AA Problem? I bet around 600 in both instances to find out where I am. Any raise back at me, I'll still go along with, as the only two hands I could see him having that would be me would be 6s or 8s. I can't see him playing any hand with an 8 in it other than that. Plus, if it's a rebuy, I'd be tempted to bet bigger.

[Valiant23]

Re: AA Problem? Nope I must stress this wasn't a rebuy it was a £20 freezeout with 8k in chips and 20 minute blinds. I was trying to describe my table. :ok

[Paulie_D]

Re: AA Problem?

I bet around 600 in both instances to find out where I am.

Yeah, I think that sounds about right!

[robilaruk]

Re: AA Problem? 3/4pot to pot bet Damo What do you do? (a) In the casino (b) Online :unsure

[voiceofjoe]

Re: AA Problem? Well he'll be acting first, so what did he do ?? - Check or Bet

[aimar21]

Re: AA Problem? If he's really quiet then 8-8 would be his only call that hits the flop but he could be holding lots of other hands so if it's 8-8 it's a cooler. online I'd bet strong probably pot-size or even bigger since it would probably get called and wouldn't mean a thing for me.( he would think it missed you too) casino: If he's a tight and quite player he would fold even to a 1/2 pot bet. I think that's enough because he could be check-raising or check-callin so no need to take risks. It's not like the online game so if he calls I could be more careful.

[mrmuzeman]

Re: AA Problem?

What do you do? (a) In the casino (b) Online

Well UTG is to act first so we need to know what he did first! Ill assume he checked though as im guessing thats what happened. Well if this PARTICULAR 886 board had 2 to a flush on it id definitely bet, probably 600-700. BUT it doesnt its rainbow so its actually totally ok to check behind here if you want to. If he has 2 high cards then hes TOTALLY missed the flop and he cant move ahead of you whatever may hit on the turn. It also makes it look like you have missed also with an AK for example if hes someone who thinks about things. So thats 1 possible move. The other is to put out a weak CB, like 500. This also has the added benefit of looking like youve missed the flop with overcards and he may play back at you with a checkraise to try and take it down. ESPECIALLY if he has a pocket pair which is very relevant here. If you see UTG limp then call a raise his most likely holding is a small/medium PP, its just an observation ive made through playing a lot, it really is a PP quite a lot. That rule only really applies to UTG or UTG+1 though but this is UTG so thats ok. So id either check behind or bet 500 as I put him on a PP if I had to say. Either of those is totally fine imo.

[Valiant23]

Re: AA Problem? :$ :$ :$ Oops! Couple of things. 1- He checked 2- It was a rainbow flop Well, I didn't want to portray weakness and wanted to put a bet in to challenge him. I thought a bet of 400 would be too weak and so I went with a bet of 1,000 (approx. pot sized). He paused then called. (Pot now stands at 2,950) Turn is a 2. I am certain that this made two of one suit on the board so flushes shouldn't be discounted. I think one of the 8's and the 2 were hearts. He checked. Your turn.

[mrmuzeman]

Re: AA Problem?

Well, I didn't want to portray weakness and wanted to put a bet in to challenge him.

Why is this btw, I think its quite good to look weak here. The turn deuce changes nothing, hes shown us that he surely (bar weirdness) he either has a PP or has flopped a boat (66) or trips (getting freaky deaky with 78 or 89 preflop). Any of those are possible but you have to presume your ahead for now. Bet again cos this pots well worth taking down now with 3k in it but no need to hammer it incase hes got us and if he has just the PP we would like him to stay but still at a reasonably hefty price. A 2k bet looks good. If he checkraises then its gona have to be an annoying fold imo. He would very rarely checkraise without the above danger hands. If he calls the turn then we have to see the river but if he checks the river then im checking behind.

[daftpegasus]

Re: AA Problem? I'd check. You don't say anything on the size of your respective chip stacks so i'm assuming that they're both about 8000 (starting stacks). In which case I'd be happy to win 2950 if I am ahead with my aces but the call of a pot sized bet on the flop spells danger to me. If he re raised all in what would you do? Let's see the river and his action on the river before getting enough information to decide your move. I doubt he's holding 88 as he'd surely bet a small amount (say 400) on the turn as you couldn't fold (pot odds to call), so he'd build up the pot. Therefore he's either holding 66 or a high pocket pair. If he has anything else then, despite what happens in this hand you've got to be happy because he's playing poorly. PS - if he does win the hand taking you out of the game do we get a multiple choice on what you said or did when he went to shake your hand?;)

[Valiant23]

Re: AA Problem?

PS - if he does win the hand taking you out of the game do we get a multiple choice on what you said or did when he went to shake your hand?;)

:rollin :rollin :rollin :$ :$ :$ I've learnt my lesson mate honest.

[voiceofjoe]

Re: AA Problem? I'm always a little wary of paired flops - but after his check I would have put a 1/2 - 3/4 pot size bet in on flop. If he came with me like he did then I'm very wary - the only hand i can beat that any reasonable person would have called with UTG is another overpair to the board. However I would have expected him to have acted first on the flop if that was the case, to give him an idea where he was. I'm checking the turn - taking the extra card on the river - i would doubt the 2 has done any good- I'm ignoring the flush really as he shouldn't be calling really with 2 to the flush after turn. Im hoping he tries a check raise on the river i don't really mind giving him the free card on the river as with no realistic draws - hes unlikely to improve to beat me on the river - i.e i'm either beat already or i'm going to stay in front. If he bet small at the river i would probably call - but i would have saved my bet on the turn. If he overbets the pot on the river i'm folding

[H-Bomb]

Re: AA Problem? I bet out again. 2000-ish would suffice. For all intents and purposes you think you're ahead. Why slow down when a deuce comes out? I bet out to confirm where I am. The bet still isn't too much to commit you to the pot. If he comes over the top, you can still fold if you think he's holding 66 or some random 8. If he checks the river, I check also.

[daftpegasus]

Re: AA Problem?

:rollin :rollin :rollin :$ :$ :$ I've learnt my lesson mate honest.

:lol:lol:lol

[georgej]

Re: AA Problem? If it's Betfair - then i would only call after this, otherwise keep the pressure on him.

[aimar21]

Re: AA Problem? If he's calling a pot-sized bet there must be two reasons. First one is he has you beat, second one is he doesn't believe you. Again this could be understood by the reads on the player. If you noted him a calling station after a showdown then you surely are ahead. He might be holding JJ TT even 99 and most of the other hands. So you have more chance of being ahead than losing against pocket eights or sixes. I think that a pro would not call the pot sized bet with AK or AQ of hearts and you could gladly say that there is no flush draw but who knows if he's a pro. So I think you should take that into consideration and bet smt like 3/4 of the pot. If he calls that too and checks on the river again definite check because that bet would make you no money and might put you on a terrible decision if a raise comes.

[Valiant23]

Re: AA Problem? Well after the check I paused and made a bet of 2,000. He re-reaised me all in. We have around the same number of chips so I maybe get 100 chips back. Maybe not. So. Call or fold. (a) Online? (b) Live?

[Dave488]

Re: AA Problem? I think you have to fold, definately in a live game as you have asked him the question and he has given you the answer, you must be behind. Probably to 66 for the full house. Only other possibility is he could have the same hand as you.:ok I think online if you are playing a freeroll i would probably call as they could easily just have an over pair to the board.:unsure I actually had a very similar hand to this online, i had kings had raised 5 * BB, flop came exactly the same 8 8 6, bet pot sized on flop and turn, he just called, he then put me all in on the river, i should have folded, but didn't, he had 8 6o!!!:puke

[aimar21]

Re: AA Problem? he could be making the same moves with an overpair till 99. Also he could be using the check-raise bluff thinking the board missed you. In live tournaments it's easier to figure this out but online it's very hard to understand what players are doing so I would still call and probably lose to a river flush then play go fish with my little cousin.

[Valiant23]

Re: AA Problem?

I think you have to fold, definately in a live game as you have asked him the question and he has given you the answer, you must be behind. Probably to 66 for the full house. Only other possibility is he could have the same hand as you.:ok I think online if you are playing a freeroll i would probably call as they could easily just have an over pair to the board.:unsure I actually had a very similar hand to this online, i had kings had raised 5 * BB, flop came exactly the same 8 8 6, bet pot sized on flop and turn, he just called, he then put me all in on the river, i should have folded, but didn't, he had 8 6o!!!:puke

he could be making the same moves with an overpair till 99. Also he could be using the check-raise bluff thinking the board missed you. In live tournaments it's easier to figure this out but online it's very hard to understand what players are doing so I would still call and probably lose to a river flush then play go fish with my little cousin.

I posted it for the very reason you have both mentioned. You see, at the casino I knew that if I got the call wrong that was it for the night but I agonised for two minutes or more before folding. I wanted to make the call but I wanted to stay in the tournament more. I eventually flipped em and watched the guy take his chips to see a reaction and I believe he was gutted I didn't call. The way he played the hand screamed a small/mid pair although I couldn't discount A8 obviously. In fact I think when he raised all in on the turn (2) I believe he had hit trip 2's to make a full house. Now the reason I asked what peoples online decision would be was because I knew that personally I would have had say 30 seconds to make the same judgement and in truth I would have said "fcuk it" and called. I would have known I was behind when I made the call but the fact is when we play online the decision doesn't matter. It takes no effort to go to the lobby and find another game. This is something that I need to change in my online game and will look to do so. For those of you who are like me and would have folded in a card-room and called in an online tourney, think about this before you make the call. If you are happy to make the call and find another game you are running the risk of having a very long losing streak because you're playing for the sake of playing, not for the sake of winning. Thanks to those who took the time to reply in this thread. :ok

[mrmuzeman]

Re: AA Problem? Good fold V. To quote myself

If he checkraises then its gona have to be an annoying fold imo. He would very rarely checkraise without the above danger hands.

I was gona say why dyou keep saying online whatr do you, live what do you do. Personally it makes no difference to me which it is. Although now I see why you put it. Shame you didnt ACTUALLY get to see what he had though. It looks like me PP read was probably a good one though, works good that does.

[Valiant23]

Re: AA Problem?

Good fold V. To quote myself I was gona say why dyou keep saying online whatr do you, live what do you do. Personally it makes no difference to me which it is. Although now I see why you put it. Shame you didnt ACTUALLY get to see what he had though. It looks like me PP read was probably a good one though, works good that does.

Cheers mate. I did it like that for two reasons; 1 - The scenario was live 2 - Like I said. I knew my decision making is different online and its something I really need to change. I find it much easier to get away from hands in a casino. I hope most are like you, but if any are like me well maybe this will help. I didn't actually see what he had but as I was on my way home the tourney was on a break, so I asked him if he would tell me. The table was discussing that hand for a while afterwards and he kept quiet and that told me he had me too. His hand? 10 8 suited (he said)

[robbiemc]

Re: AA Problem? id have called because if he had 66 88 would he not flat call and let u bet again?

[aimar21]

Re: AA Problem? that's not true if he really had 10 8 which means the trips, he could think that you had a flush draw. If he puts you on a flush draw, then he can't win any bets in fifth street. Either you hit your flush and win the pot, or you miss it and fold. So he wanted to win as much as he could in the fourth street while you are still on a draw that is very likely to miss you.

[Valiant23]

Re: AA Problem? I don't see anywhere in my play where I suggested any kind of draw Aimar. 10bb's on a draw is the kind of aggression that (imo) only a skilled LAG such as Jaded would be comfortable with. Whether or not he actually had me beat he persuaded me to fold so it was a truly good hand. I played my hand correctly (imo) and apart from amybe calling my pre-flop raise so did he. :ok

[mrmuzeman]

Re: AA Problem? If he did have 108 I disagree that he played it well. Checkraising isnt the sort of play I think is good in general when you have a big hand (apart from river checkraising which is a delight). If he leads into you on the flop, you raise him and he goes back all in over the top its difficult to see you folding AA. Leading into preflop raisers is the way to win big pots. Not check calling on dry boards then check raising the turn on a blank, hes just letting you know he has a big hand and you can correctly get away from your Aces. Which is good for you obviously.

[aimar21]

Re: AA Problem? You didn't show any sign of a draw that's right but you could be on a runner flush draw by chance. What if you had AQ or AK suited and were making a continuation bet (Of course I don't know if you have been doing them before) at the flop and he trapped you to do so because he knew you would, then once more on the turn but this time afraid of the flush so he raises and tries to make the most money out of it. Anyways I'm having problems remembering hand situations at this one everytime I try to post a reply :lol so I'm probably missing something and you are probably right :ok .