aimar21 Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 hi there, I know about outs, pot odds, value etc. in draw situations but I really don't know about that in starting hands. For example I have JTs obviously you poker experts think about calling or folding it considering the chips in the pot. Lets say the big blind is 200 and no one raised how much should be in the pot so that you can call this 200. I don't think it would make sense to call if only one person wants to see the flop. I'm asking this for these starting hands suited connectors off-suit connectors or Axs-Kxs that don't have a straight possibility thanks all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viggosen Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Re: NL Starting Hand Value Well, not sure i would call myself a poker expert but here is my view. I don`t really care about how much there is in the pot, I care about how deep my oppoents is (how big their stackseize are compared to the amout they put in preflop). It need to be atleast 10 times as big, and usually I want it to be 20 times or more. This is because suited connectors hit so rarely that I want to have a chance of winning a really big pot if I hit a good flop. I doN´t think it matter if there are few or many in the pot, if you have only one opponent, you risc that he doesn´t have any thing if you hit a big flop, so you still only wins a small pot, but on the upside in position against 1 opponent you can often steal the pot when he miss. Against more opponents you can rarely steale the pot, but if you hit a good flop, usually someone else have hit toppair or better, so the you have a good chance of winning a big pot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Re: NL Starting Hand Value you mean how many others have limped in before you? well the more that limp the worse chance you have of winning as the value of your hand goes down for calling into unraised pots with marginal hands, I don't think there is a 'magic' number - only experience of playing will let you decide when to limp and when to fold. In a hand there is also these things (among others) to consider: your position, so if you are limping J10 then the button is best as you will act last on every other round your chips stack - is 200 a lot? if you have 800 left then no, you don't limp - if you have 8000 then you might other people chip stacks - has the BB only got 1000 left? he might shove if you limp - do you want to pay 1200 for your J 10? have people been passive or aggressive pre-flop? if passive then limp, if aggressive then be expected to be raised re Ax - I generally don't limp Ax at all - and don't think I would every limp Kx - they are too poor a starting hand for me, an Ace hits and unles you two pair, the guy UTG who limped AJ is beating you etc Good luck :ok Damo hi there, I know about outs, pot odds, value etc. in draw situations but I really don't know about that in starting hands. For example I have JTs obviously you poker experts think about calling or folding it considering the chips in the pot. Lets say the big blind is 200 and no one raised how much should be in the pot so that you can call this 200. I don't think it would make sense to call if only one person wants to see the flop. I'm asking this for these starting hands suited connectors off-suit connectors or Axs-Kxs that don't have a straight possibility thanks all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimar21 Posted January 3, 2007 Author Share Posted January 3, 2007 Re: NL Starting Hand Value Let's say that there are 8 players in the table I'm in dealer position and starting from UTG nobody called the big blind there is 300 in the pot since the big blind is 200 let's say I have a big stack so does the BB and SB and they are passive. Should I still call this because if I call and the SB also calls there will be 600 in the pot and 200 of that is mine. It's like a 3.00 odd. Do I have that much chance of hitting the flop for draws with JTs. Of course knowing the table and the stack sizes are important but let's say they are just suited for you to call. Should you call this? cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick mick Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Re: NL Starting Hand Value In these conditions I'd prefer a 3BB stealing raise which is more likely to take down the pot then and there and you don't have to worry about the flop, though if you do get called you stand a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Re: NL Starting Hand Value I agree - if you are going to play in this situation then raise and put pressure on the blinds Damo In these conditions I'd prefer a 3BB stealing raise which is more likely to take down the pot then and there and you don't have to worry about the flop' date=' though if you do get called you stand a chance.[/quote'] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Re: NL Starting Hand Value I had a quick glance at this this morning and I think you're missing the point guys. It seems to me that aimar is asking about hand odds and hole cards improving. ie small pocket pair making trips etc. (P.S. Its not my strongest subject so I'll read this thread with interest if I am right). :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Re: NL Starting Hand Value in that case: odds of improvement are avaialble on lots of sites - here for instance http://www.homepokergames.com/odds.php if you want to know how your hand fairs aginst others then get pokerstove http://www.pokerstove.com/ its a free tool that you can input hand and hand ranges into and figures out what the chances of them winning/losing/tieing are HTH Damo I had a quick glance at this this morning and I think you're missing the point guys. It seems to me that aimar is asking about hand odds and hole cards improving. ie small pocket pair making trips etc. (P.S. Its not my strongest subject so I'll read this thread with interest if I am right). :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Re: NL Starting Hand Value For example I have JTs obviously you poker experts think about calling or folding it considering the chips in the pot. I don`t really care about how much there is in the pot' date=' I care about how deep my oppoents is[/quote'] Agree totally - if you are playing drawing hands, then it is the implied odds that are most critical in making it profitable (or not). No point in playing your 55 for example to hit trips ( once in every 7.5 times I think) if your opponent only has 3 times what you're putting in in his stack..... You're limping with a drawing hand to hit a monster - the nuts or near nuts. Most of the time, you will miss and you want to let the hand go without a fight. On the FEW occasions that you hit, you need to get paid off. You therefore want as many people in the hand as possible to increase the chances that someone hits some of the flop - you have a MONSTER, you're almost certainly beating them, but you want multiple opponents there to pay you off on the occasions when you do hit. My view is that a drawing hand, like suited connectors, INCREASES in value with more limpers. The more limpers there are before you, the more often you should play the hand - no limpers before you and a drawing hand loses so much of it's value (from implied odds), you should usually dump it..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Re: NL Starting Hand Value okay - maybe this is better it decreases in value against the more players (i.e. it has less of a chance of winning) however to maximise its value you need as many limpers in the pot as you can get to have a chance of being paid off if you do hit Damo view is that a drawing hand' date=' like suited connectors, INCREASES in value with more limpers. The more limpers there are before you, the more often you should play the hand - no limpers before you and a drawing hand loses so much of it's value (from implied odds), you should usually dump it.....[/quote'] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimar21 Posted January 3, 2007 Author Share Posted January 3, 2007 Re: NL Starting Hand Value thanks valiant for translating my speech into English :) . That was really what I wanted and thanks for the sites robilaruk. my english and poker terms knowledge is not so good so I couldn't express myself clearly. GAF's answer was actually what I was thinking and looking for. I agree that value goes down that way. I will actually not call this hand if there are not enough limpers especially if the blind is high and my stack is low. Thanks for all the tips people cheers.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Re: NL Starting Hand Value especially if the blind is high and my stack is low. Stack size (yours and your opponents)as a proportion of the blinds is the most critical part (IMO) of a No Limit tournament. If you think of a hand like 55 - early in a tournament, you typically want to limp (for the implied odds if you hit), in the middle of a tournament, you probably fold it, whilst at the end of a tournament, you probably shove all in (if you are first into the pot). So the same cards, but you are limping, folding or going all in depending on the blinds. The Series of books Harrington on Hold'em are great for exploring this (especially volume II). You can get copies, in English I'm afraid, from www.thepokerbay.org if you use torrents (and I'm sure after you've reviewed it, you'll buy a physical copy - it's worth it :ok) You can see a summary on this here - http://www.punterslounge.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26592&highlight=harrington with examples here - http://www.punterslounge.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26655&highlight=harrington Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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