GaF Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 Have been looking though No Limit Holdem - Theory and Practice by David Sklansky and Ed Miller. Part 2 of the book is 59 Quick Comments: Concepts and Weapons - thought it would be interesting to put one up every few days for discussion .... so here's number one - any thoughts? Agree/Disagree? No argument from me :ok For most situations there is an optimal bet size. Chances are you will get it wrong. Someone who gets it wrong by betting too much, will in my opinion do better than someone who bets too little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick mick Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 Re: Concept 01 Have to agree I tend to bet big unless I have a monster, lets me know where I am or wins the hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 28, 2006 Author Share Posted December 28, 2006 Re: Concept 01 I think it's even more valid at the level we play at, where you are perhaps more likely to get a call from a worse hand than at a higher level..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaded Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 Re: Concept 01 Definitely agree - I have a bad tendency to bet too low with monster hands (simply because 98% of the time I have junk, and a decent holding confuses me!!) and I'm sure it costs me more money than any of my other bad habits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmuzeman Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 Re: Concept 01 Work on that Jaded that is THE big advantage a maniacal player has no one ever gives him credit anyway! I agree with this for sure but note its not saying to always bet and things like that, its saying if you are definitely going to bet, go bigger rather than smaller. It DOESNT mean if you are not sure whether to check or bet then you should bet, that is a different topic completely and a more interesting one imo. What is Sklansky talking about for anyway, you can only bet the same amount in limit regardless :tongue2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jannieb Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 Re: Concept 01 Spot on MR Muze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Re: Concept 01 are we talking cash or tourneys? makes a massive difference to the answer Damo Have been looking though No Limit Holdem - Theory and Practice by David Sklansky and Ed Miller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 30, 2006 Author Share Posted December 30, 2006 Re: Concept 01 Interesting question - and I think the answer is it's both!!! You're right of course - tourney or cash game will impact the answer, however in relation to this specific concept, I'm struggling to see an example of where it's an issue :unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Re: Concept 01 coz in tourney an over bet with a medium hand that is beat can cost you the game - so where is the merit in that in fact in a cash game if you are beat with cards to some where is the merit in that? you are giving chips/cash away on a hand that you need to draw with to win (thats assuming the villian only calls, if he raises then what?) just wondering Damo Interesting question - and I think the answer is it's both!!! You're right of course - tourney or cash game will impact the answer, however in relation to this specific concept, I'm struggling to see an example of where it's an issue :unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 30, 2006 Author Share Posted December 30, 2006 Re: Concept 01 coz in tourney an over bet with a medium hand that is beat can cost you the game Only if you're short stacked !! :unsure and in that scenario I dont think that this concept is particularly applicable :unsure We're not talking MASSIVE overbets here .... I think it's something along the lines if you've decided to bet and you think $150 to $200 is the right range, then you should bet $200 rather than $150....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Re: Concept 01 so its second hand of a tourney and you have limped J10s on the button after 2 limpers before you, the SB makes up and the BB checks - so there is 150 in the pot (15/30 blinds) the flop is QJ6 rainbow, its checked to you and you bet 200 - that is 1/7th of your stack or so (assuming 1500 chips), and the SB calls and everyone else folds turn is a 2 - SB checks - now what? in this case you are risking a lot very early on and you are not short stacked - but will soon be - do you fire again betting big as it has 'merits' because there are cards to come? (as per the concept?) I get the concept when you are ahead, I understand what he is saying however, the bit about betting and making decisions easier later on even if called doesn't seem to make good sense to me - in the case above why bet 200 and get called? - if no one has something than 120 should suffice, by betting big without the best hand all you are doing is building a pot worth winning (for everyone) and you cannot guarentee you are winning with an over card to your pair does this make my point clearer? Damo Only if you're short stacked !! :unsure and in that scenario I dont think that this concept is particularly applicable :unsure We're not talking MASSIVE overbets here .... I think it's something along the lines if you've decided to bet and you think $150 to $200 is the right range, then you should bet $200 rather than $150....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 30, 2006 Author Share Posted December 30, 2006 Re: Concept 01 Surely the question you are asking is the same, whether you have bet 150 or 200? :unsure The extra 50 is a double edged sword - on the one hand you are building a pot if you lose, on the other hand, you should be increasing your fold equity (and building a pot if you win - given you have chosen to bet - I presume you have something and a chance to win!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 30, 2006 Author Share Posted December 30, 2006 Re: Concept 01 so its second hand of a tourney and you have limped J10s on the button after 2 limpers before you, the SB makes up and the BB checks - so there is 150 in the pot (15/30 blinds) the flop is QJ6 rainbow, its checked to you and you bet 200 - that is 1/7th of your stack or so (assuming 1500 chips), and the SB calls and everyone else folds turn is a 2 - SB checks - now what? in this case you are risking a lot very early on and you are not short stacked - but will soon be - do you fire again betting big as it has 'merits' because there are cards to come? (as per the concept?) With that number of opponents I would probably not have bet my second pair, this early in the tournament - the concept is NOT saying to bet when you would otherwise check...... A bet of 200 here is absolute madness!!!!! (and not at all what the concept is saying!!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Re: Concept 01 hang on unless I am totally misreading the concept it does read like that to me, its either bluffing or value betting your merely good hand, not the excellent hand which is easy to understand to paraphrase: finally if your hand is merely good (so not the best then, maybe TP weak kicker or 2nd pair great kicker etc), an overbet with cards to come has merits. First it will make you decision on the next round easier since you will win it easily or know you are in trouble. Second if you opponent know that you will sometime overbet medium strength hands (again sounds like 2nd pair to me) etc it is the bit about overbetting your medium/merely good hand I am struggling with, TPTK and Bluff I get, just not his bit re the example - its folded to you on the button and you just call with the same hand - so its you and the blinds - now what would you do on that flop if they check to you? the concept suggests to me to bet at it say 120 into a 90 pot? you did ask for an example of when this might occur remember:ok - how about this as a better example: you limp Q8 suited - now what? top pair and weak kicker on the same flop similar bet of around 120/150? just opening up the debate and trying to figure the concept out Damo With that number of opponents I would probably not have bet my second pair, this early in the tournament - the concept is NOT saying to bet when you would otherwise check...... A bet of 200 here is absolute madness!!!!! (and not at all what the concept is saying!!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted December 30, 2006 Author Share Posted December 30, 2006 Re: Concept 01 you did ask for an example of when this might occur remember:ok Absolutely :ok It's by discussing it and working it through that we'll both understand the concept better and be able to come to a better judgement on whether we agree with it or not and whether we want it to impact our future play or not :ok I agree with this for sure but note its not saying to always bet and things like that' date=' its saying if you are definitely going to bet, go bigger rather than smaller. It DOESNT mean if you are not sure whether to check or bet then you should bet[/quote'] That is indeed my interpretation of it, and this is critical!!! As I read it, you have already made the decision to raise, check or fold. This concept ONLY applies to those situations where you have predetermined that you wish to raise - the only question is how much. If you reread the first paragraph of the concept, then you have already made the decision to raise, it's just a question of how much you wish to raise (and the advice is to err towards the higher end of your range). So you want to raise, for arguments sake between 150 and 200, then the concept is to make it 200 rather than 150 ..... The way I read the use of "overbet" here is that 150 is maybe the standard expected raise, so a bet of 200 is an overbet of 50. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted December 31, 2006 Share Posted December 31, 2006 Re: Concept 01 thanks for the clarification - tho I still think the bit about betting your merely good hands is not that sound :) Damo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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