Was I right to call this?

[heniek31]

I qualified to 15k for few dollars and this was the last hand before a break (and add on). I wouldnt add on for $30. Had open ended stright and a flush draw. Did I have the right odds to call? Chip leader was on 11k, so it woud settle me nicely for the future. Or not?:unsure Game #1823125858 - Tournament $15,000 R&A (NLH) - 50/100 No Limit Texas Hold'em - 2006/12/26-14:59:59.3 (CST) Table "$15,000 R&A 13" (MTT) -- Seat 5 is the button Seat 2: FIGARO (4,305 in chips) Seat 3: magrav (4,684 in chips) Seat 4: dapistola (3,419 in chips) Seat 5: TheCount1960 (1,091 in chips) Seat 6: Schnuller (4,620 in chips) Seat 7: cashiskingen (2,400 in chips) Seat 8: kid_canada (5,485 in chips) Seat 9: heniek31339 (2,982 in chips) Seat 10: jamieb (4,586 in chips) Schnuller: Post Small Blind (50) cashiskingen: Post Big Blind (100) Dealing... Dealt to heniek31339 [ Th ] Dealt to heniek31339 [ Jh ] kid_canada: Fold heniek31339: Call (100) jamieb : Fold FIGARO : Fold magrav : Fold dapistola: Raise (200) TheCount1960: Fold Schnuller: Fold cashiskingen: Call (100) heniek31339: Call (100) *** FLOP *** : [ Qc 5h Kc ] cashiskingen: Check heniek31339: Check dapistola: Bet (200) cashiskingen: Call (200) heniek31339: Call (200) *** TURN *** : [ Qc 5h Kc ] [ 7h ] cashiskingen: Check heniek31339: Check dapistola: Bet (3,019) cashiskingen: Fold heniek31339: Call All-in (2,582) *** RIVER *** : [ Qc 5h Kc 7h ] [ 4c ] *** SUMMARY *** Pot: 6,414 | Board: [ Qc 5h Kc 7h 4c ] FIGARO didn't bet (folded) magrav didn't bet (folded) dapistola bet 3,419, collected 6,851, net +3,432 (showed hand) [ Ks Ah ] (a pair of kings) TheCount1960 didn't bet (folded) Schnuller lost 50 (folded) cashiskingen lost 400 (folded) kid_canada didn't bet (folded) heniek31339 lost 2,982 (showed hand) [ Th Jh ] (high card king) jamieb didn't bet (folded)

[GaF]

Re: Was I right to call this? You probably had 15 outs - so about 30% to hit ....... so at a very quick count up, no you didn't have the odds to call..... However, even if you did have the odds to call - you're talking 70% to go out of the tournament, and 30% to stay in - the question is what you thought you could achieve with a stack of 2,500 if you folded (what was the average stack? In terms of blinds you had enough) compared to what you thought you could achieve with a stack of 6500 odd if you won......

[GaF]

Re: Was I right to call this? What I don't like - you've been passive throughout ..... you've been answering questions, but at no stage have you asked your own ...... not sure where you could have done it differently ...... maybe a semi bluff on the flop or the turn ..... whilst you wouldn't have had the odds directly, add in the fold equity and you have ..... You tried to use no fold equity in that hand - your opponents had all of the leverage!!!

[Jaded]

Re: Was I right to call this? Not overly convinced by it, to be honest... not keen on limping in general, I'd have ditched it from that position, given your stack is reasonable, even if you're not going to add on. (Assuming an add-on is 1500 chips, yeah?) On the flop... okay, decent straight draw, outside chance of a flush, 200 to call with 1050 there - fair enough, I suppose. On the turn - you're risking 2,582 to win 6,851. Have you got the odds? You need a bit more than a 1 in 3 chance, if I've worked that out correctly. (And it was VERY rough, and I'm VERY tired, so it could well be nothing like that.) How many cards help you? 9 hearts for the flush, 3 extra A's, 3 extra 9's, making 15... but there's the danger of him having Ax, Kx, or Qx hearts, so I'd say that's slightly less than 15 full outs. I'm not sure you have the odds, personally. Looking at stack sizes... if you fold now, you've got 2,582. The blinds are presumably going up to 200/100 after the break, giving you an M of about 8 - not good by any means, but not horrendous. Other people's stacks will mainly be around 6,000 (if they add on) or 4,500 (if they don't). For me, it's dump it and take your chances on doubling up ASAP after the break.

[heniek31]

Re: Was I right to call this? Cheers Gaf. Im sure average stack was over 3k and I couldve waited. I wouldve been on blinds next hand (100/200), so still time to be in better situation. I had a very long think before I called him. As I said, qualified for this, so I liked the idea of amount of chips coming my way. We all take a gamble (only) time to time :ok.

[heniek31]

Re: Was I right to call this?

Not overly convinced by it, to be honest... not keen on limping in general, I'd have ditched it from that position, given your stack is reasonable, even if you're not going to add on. (Assuming an add-on is 1500 chips, yeah?) On the flop... okay, decent straight draw, outside chance of a flush, 200 to call with 1050 there - fair enough, I suppose. On the turn - you're risking 2,582 to win 6,851. Have you got the odds? You need a bit more than a 1 in 3 chance, if I've worked that out correctly. (And it was VERY rough, and I'm VERY tired, so it could well be nothing like that.) How many cards help you? 9 hearts for the flush, 3 extra A's, 3 extra 9's, making 15... but there's the danger of him having Ax, Kx, or Qx hearts, so I'd say that's slightly less than 15 full outs. I'm not sure you have the odds, personally. Looking at stack sizes... if you fold now, you've got 2,582. The blinds are presumably going up to 200/100 after the break, giving you an M of about 8 - not good by any means, but not horrendous. Other people's stacks will mainly be around 6,000 (if they add on) or 4,500 (if they don't). For me, it's dump it and take your chances on doubling up ASAP after the break.

Thank you Jade. Just the last statment. Id rather go out now with a good draw like this one, than losing with AQ to 55 or so. Figuratively (spell?) speaking of course :ok.

[GaF]

Re: Was I right to call this? You prefer to take a 30% chance than a 45% chance? :unsure

[heniek31]

Re: Was I right to call this?

What I don't like - you've been passive throughout ..... you've been answering questions, but at no stage have you asked your own ...... not sure where you could have done it differently ...... maybe a semi bluff on the flop or the turn ..... whilst you wouldn't have had the odds directly, add in the fold equity and you have ..... You tried to use no fold equity in that hand - your opponents had all of the leverage!!!

Thats a very master-like thinking Gaf :notworthy, which Im far from it :$. After we see his cards, obviously theres no chance in hell he is going to put it down pre flop or after. But any other cards than AK, different story. Thank you again :clap.

[heniek31]

Re: Was I right to call this?

You prefer to take a 30% chance than a 45% chance? :unsure

:lol I know what you mean Gaf :ok.

[Valiant23]

Re: Was I right to call this? I get the feeling that you'd made your mind up to push on this hand if you hit, and fold if you didn't, but the flop was one of those that asked you a question you thought you'd already answered. I think when you saw the KQ you had 3 options; 1. Go all in and in all likelihood get called. 2. Check and hope to see a free card, but be prepared to pay 1 blind for the turn. 3. Fold it to any bet.

*** FLOP *** : [ Qc 5h Kc ] cashiskingen: Check heniek31339: Check dapistola: Bet (200) cashiskingen: Call (200) heniek31339: Call (200) *** TURN *** : [ Qc 5h Kc ] [ 7h ] cashiskingen: Check heniek31339: Check dapistola: Bet (3,019) cashiskingen: Fold heniek31339: Call All-in (2,582)

I really don't like the all in on the turn. To me that is a move made out of tilt rather than any thought (tilt that you didn't hit your out). That is the danger of playing marginal hands when you're in early position, because you know that anything you lose on this hand will also be compounded by the fast approaching blinds.

[mrmuzeman]

Re: Was I right to call this?

Did I have the right odds to call?

No, in short. You had to call 2.5k for about 3.5k in the pot, its WAY short of the odds you need. Tbh with a drawing hand for your whole tourny youd be best off folding even if you did have ok odds (say there was 5k or 6k in pot, id still fold here). The last thing you want to do is be calling for all your chips as a decent underdog in a tournament, the goal is to remain in the tournament first and foremost.

On the turn - you're risking 2,582 to win 6,851.

This is incorrect Jaded (but fair enough you said you were tired etc :lol). Youre calling about 2.6K to win 3.8K. A note on general play - I dont mind the preflop and flop play. It is neither here nor there imo, you can fold you can call it doesnt make too much difference in the long run. But you should fold turn.

[heniek31]

Re: Was I right to call this?

I really don't like the all in on the turn. To me that is a move made out of tilt rather than any thought (tilt that you didn't hit your out).

I dont understand what you mean Andy. Something new that sort of tilt is. I dont tilt in cash games or MTTs unless some small freerolls. I explained, that I had a long thing before I called, but definately not because I didnt hit :ok. Cheers MrM for valuable input as always :D. Im sure it a very common situation in poker, so cheers again for your thoughts guys. Lesson learned :ok.

[Jannieb]

Re: Was I right to call this? Dealt to heniek31339 [ Th ] Dealt to heniek31339 [ Jh ] kid_canada: Fold heniek31339: Call (100) jamieb : Fold FIGARO : Fold magrav : Fold dapistola: Raise (200) TheCount1960: Fold Schnuller: Fold cashiskingen: Call (100) heniek31339: Call (100) I must admit that i do not like that you limp with this type off hand in early position if you have decided to play it from this position then raise it coming in.

[guesswest]

Re: Was I right to call this? Think I'm just repeating Gaf here, but....If you are going to play this hand, you should raise the flop, or if you don't, at least bet the turn. You have a big draw, but you don't have odds to be flat calling it, With a draw like this, by raising you're creating folding equity (x% call y% fold), you don't need a massive amount of folding equity to find value in this hand, but by being passive you have none, it's just a face-value call and the value isn't there. And it's not just folding equity - if you get calls and do hit you have a better chance of being called down on the river because, as much as people should put you on drawing hands in those kinds of situations, they tend not to.