Punters Lounge exclusive leagues

[robilaruk]

Re: Punters Lounge exclusive leagues are 'me to' posts allowed? I agree with GaF here - points should be known, points should be awarded dependant on players, tounry winners should receive more points as a ratio to the other places Though I have no issue with some of the prizepool being put aside to reward the most consistent player - how you would determine that is tricky - but if someone is placed on 6 FT's out of eight yet only finish 4th/5th in the league as they kept getting placed about 5th, then perhaps a small value prize is in order (5%/10% of the total prize pool?) re buy-in - like most games it needs to hurt (at least a little) so you have something to lose (and win) - I am not sure the $2 buy-in means anything, however if it was $5 or $10 then it starts to mean something and so maybe the play will change accordingly? And might answer the issue of drop out as well - for instance in a 6 series I miss points on the first three games and effectively have no chance of getting ITM for the bonus, so I look at the $2 buy in, realise that if I win tonight's game I will add about $25 to my BR - is it worth the three hours it will take to do so? - however make it a $10 buy in and I can be winning $125 and all of a sudden I am playing for the prizepool on the night, not just the points for the series, so I am more likely to play all the games even if I have no chance of getting any bonus cash, because the prizepool is attractive Yes this sounds selfish and yes detracts from the spirit of the game and why they were set up, but as I (and others I would guess) have limited time playing this game due to life getting in the way, I do need to choose what games I play and if after 4 games in a 6 series tounry I have no chance of getting up the table, I would probably choose to play for a couple of hours on STT's making cash (hopefully :eek ), rather than a 3 hour MTT for maybe $10 or $15 if I place in the top 3 or 4 if its a $2 buy in. Just a thought Damo

Sorry Mr V, have to disagree with some of the points you raise......Would appreciate others views (agree or disagree) - if I'm in the minority, I'll happily change it (even if I dont agree).... I think it's important to have the scores to maintain competition between players ..... the scoring system is known, so anyone could calculate it themselves anyway (and scores are published on BPP - so they dont even need to be calculated) - I think it's essential to the tourneys that scores are published...... I would feel pretty agrieved if I beat 43 other players and only got the same number of points as someone who beat 21 other players - surely beating more players is a harder task and deserves greater reward? This is probably where I disagree most!!! If someone is unable to win a game, do they really deserve to win the league? Look at Wurzel in Titan - he won 2 consecutive games, yet was still unable to win the league - he would probably argue not enough emphasis on tournament wins.... If someone is consistently getting high finishes, but not moving on to get their fair share of wins, it sounds to me like they are playing too cautiously when short stacked/short handed :unsure (and could probably benefit through a read of Harrington :tongue2). Points structures that reward consistency - like Betfair Team Reindeer and MKOP are atrocious IMO....it's not about poker it's about how high hands you're prepared to throw away (ok - they are to extreme I know). I think our games are quite tight and so it is even more important that aggressive play is rewarded/encouraged rather than limping up a few extra places? I'm quite liking the idea for more points for the final game (double may be too much) to give more to play for ....... but also don't want to go too far that this removes chances for the "best" player to win and it all coming down to one game ..... will have a think ...... Not sure I can see how a more expensive buy in on the PL leagues changes anything? All it can do is exclude those PL'rs not wanting to pay the extra buy in? We are playing more for league points/prizes than nightly prizes anyway aren't we? Would definitely be interested in the views of those who dont play and why, and what may encourage them to play more - if they want to PM me (without it being repeated on here) that would be fine too :ok

[robilaruk]

Re: Punters Lounge exclusive leagues Mick - are you saying that you should get more points for winning a game or less Bit confused here - if I read the other posts correctly Pene won by having more FT finishes and not winning a single game (therefore the suggestion is, she is more consistent) - yet those who did win games did not win the series as they did not place consistently enough to win it over all. So it seems to reward consistency rather than just a couple of wins Are you saying it should be the other way around? as we all know that winning a tourny is very difficult, and I have agreed that a winner should get more points as a ratio compared to other FT finishers Cheers Damo

I think the scoring system should be more 'real life' i.e. related to cash won. This would encourage (force?) players to be become better tournament players. Considering both Wurzel and I had 2 wins in a league and neither won the league you have to concede the scoring is flawed somewhat. This would also mean that in the last game you should still be able to hit the added money with a win so less reason for tail offs towards the end of a league.

[slapdash]

Re: Punters Lounge exclusive leagues I think I'm partly responsible for the current scoring system: I made a flippant suggestion a while ago and GaF took me seriously! I don't have any particular emotional attachment to it, although I think it works quite well. But certainly there's no reason not to tweak it if that would improve it. However, reading people's comments in this thread, I get the feeling that some people who are "agreeing" with each other about the need for change are actually arguing for completely opposite changes! Just to clarify people's opinions, here are what I think are the three basic variables, and some data on how things are now. A) How does the number of points you win in a given tournament vary with your position? Here's a table showing how many points you get for various positions as a percentage of what you get for first place. This depends on the number of entrants, so there are columns for various numbers. For comparison, I've also put a column for the SpOdds Champions League scoring system.

Position	20 players	30 players	40 players	50 players		SpOdds
1st	100	100	100	100		100
2nd	77	80	81	82		72
3rd	63	68	70	72		67
10th	23	32	38	41		44
20th	0	12	19	23		22

B) How does the number of points available vary with the number of entrants? Here I've given the number of points you'd get for various positions expressed as a percentage of the number of points you'd get for that position if there were 30 players.

Position	20 players	30 players	40 players	50 players
1st	88	100	108	115
2nd	85	100	111	119
3rd	82	100	112	122
10th	63	100	126	146
20th	0	100	171	226

C) How do you deal with players who play different numbers of legs?

[slick mick]

Re: Punters Lounge exclusive leagues

Mick - are you saying that you should get more points for winning a game or less Bit confused here - if I read the other posts correctly Pene won by having more FT finishes and not winning a single game (therefore the suggestion is, she is more consistent) - yet those who did win games did not win the series as they did not place consistently enough to win it over all. So it seems to reward consistency rather than just a couple of wins Are you saying it should be the other way around? as we all know that winning a tourny is very difficult, and I have agreed that a winner should get more points as a ratio compared to other FT finishers Cheers Damo

I'm saying the higher positions should have more points. I tend to play hands aggressively putting people to difficult decisions for a lot of chips, this means I either go out early or have a good start and place highly. In the three leagues I played in last month I finished in profit before any added money yet saw added money go to people who played consistently but were losing players. This does not seem to reward better players but the average to good players As far as consistency goes two wins out of six games seems pretty consistent to me.

[wurzel133]

Re: Punters Lounge exclusive leagues On reading the threads could you not have a win bonus say if the league is $1000 over 6 games give the winner of each game $50 then split the remaining $700 as per usual. (can we do this retrospectively for the titan league);)

[the croc]

Re: Punters Lounge exclusive leagues as i said in my first post i like the scoring as it is,fully understand mick and wurzels points about winning 2 games but missing out on the added money but the win gives you prize money on the night as a reward,my opinion would be if you win 2 games early in a series then you change your style in future games to gain maximum points.negative playing?sure its negative but look at the betfair league,hendon mob league,it keeps you in the running getting as many points as possible.personally i would keep the scoring just as it is.just my opinion :ok

[Penelopeys]

Re: Punters Lounge exclusive leagues

I do agree that the points need looking at because i could have won the league with 2 victories and 2 poorish results which would have been wrong as pene had far more consistant results. .

Pene didn't win any games - you won 2 - for me that would be a strong argument to say that you deserved to win the league - in the event she got onto the final table 4 times so the result was probably right ..... but 2 wins v 4 final tables - I really do feel it is right that wins are rewarded heavily over final table finishes - as Pene has proven' date= you CAN still win the league without winning a game (and incidentally Red Fear in 2nd also didn't win a game)

Can you please stop talking about me when I'm not here??? How rude... :eyes :tongue2 :lol A lot of great ideas on this thread by the way :ok ... My head is too wrapped up on other things to think Poker league right now... sry

[Penelopeys]

Re: Punters Lounge exclusive leagues

A Double points for the final game... absoluetly... more to play for and it's normally the last game that is the most tense... so let's up the expectation.

I must like GaF disagree on this... would make the whole league a lottery and put way too much weight on the final game.

[Penelopeys]

Re: Punters Lounge exclusive leagues

In the three leagues I played in last month I finished in profit before any added money yet saw added money go to people who played consistently but were losing players. This does not seem to reward better players but the average to good players As far as consistency goes two wins out of six games seems pretty consistent to me.

I don't consider myself a losing player... and I would think the people finishing in the money in the Mansion league don't consider themselves losing players either.

as i said in my first post i like the scoring as it is' date='fully understand mick and wurzels points about winning 2 games but missing out on the added money but the win gives you prize money on the night as a reward,[b']my opinion would be if you win 2 games early in a series then you change your style in future games to gain maximum points.negative playing?sure its negative but look at the betfair league,hendon mob league,it keeps you in the running getting as many points as possible.personally i would keep the scoring just as it is.just my opinion :ok

Spot on... win 2 games and you're miles ahead... then change your game and win the league :ok That's consistancy!

[The Quiet Man]

Re: Punters Lounge exclusive leagues Home from work - thank fcuk!! :clap Here's my view of the current set-up! (who's interested? I can hear you say) :lol Three different Leagues each week for a $1 entry with added money from Titan, Sportingodds & Mansion - it won't get much better than that, so well done to PR and GaF for securing these 'sponsorships'. :notworthy:notworthy I would possibly like to see one of these leagues changing to the weekend and having an early afternoon start time - this would give shift workers, people living abroad a chance to play in one of them. :unsure(This wouldn't suit me but the recent Betway Freeroll on a Saturday morning seemed to suggest that there was a demand for playing around that time) More importantly it would give GaF an early finish to his Admin duties and a free night for a change. (On the same note, I see no reason not to have a Focus Free night each week as happened recently - this would give GaF a whole day off, which surely no-one would begrudge him) As regards the scoring system - I can remember when the 2nd place finisher got 1 point less than the winner before Slapdash (controversially) suggested the current system. I feel that this system is spot on and favours the winners of each tourney. :ok Lastly, the Punters Lounge League games are extremely competitive but are ALWAYS played in the correct manner - by increasing the stakes there is a danger that the 'friendly' banter and compliments could disappear and I think that would be a big mistake. :unsure I personally don't play these games for the money - I play them as I feel I am having a game of poker with my friends. Long may that continue! :) TQM

[the croc]

Re: Punters Lounge exclusive leagues

Home from work - thank fcuk!! :clap Here's my view of the current set-up! (who's interested? I can hear you say) :lol Three different Leagues each week for a $1 entry with added money from Titan, Sportingodds & Mansion - it won't get much better than that, so well done to PR and GaF for securing these 'sponsorships'. :notworthy:notworthy I would possibly like to see one of these leagues changing to the weekend and having an early afternoon start time - this would give shift workers, people living abroad a chance to play in one of them. :unsure(This wouldn't suit me but the recent Betway Freeroll on a Saturday morning seemed to suggest that there was a demand for playing around that time) More importantly it would give GaF an early finish to his Admin duties and a free night for a change. (On the same note, I see no reason not to have a Focus Free night each week as happened recently - this would give GaF a whole day off, which surely no-one would begrudge him) As regards the scoring system - I can remember when the 2nd place finisher got 1 point less than the winner before Slapdash (controversially) suggested the current system. I feel that this system is spot on and favours the winners of each tourney. :ok Lastly, the Punters Lounge League games are extremely competitive but are ALWAYS played in the correct manner - by increasing the stakes there is a danger that the 'friendly' banter and compliments could disappear and I think that would be a big mistake. :unsure I personally don't play these games for the money - I play them as I feel I am having a game of poker with my friends. Long may that continue! :) TQM

spot on tqm :clap :clap :clap

[robilaruk]

Re: Punters Lounge exclusive leagues this I like - you get points for winning a bonus cash as well that make more sense to me and now Mick has explained I see we are in agreement as well, you should get more points for finishing top 5 or so IMHO (am I agreeing with everyone on here despite us all having contra views!! LOL) Damo

On reading the threads could you not have a win bonus say if the league is $1000 over 6 games give the winner of each game $50 then split the remaining $700 as per usual. (can we do this retrospectively for the titan league);)

[Tweetypie05]

Re: Punters Lounge exclusive leagues I have a final suggestion to make... As there are 3 weeklys leagues why not run a couple of the other variables and see what happens? I would only change 1 thing in each... maybe extra cash for game winners in one and a change in the scoring points in another and keep the 3rd game as is? Personnaly, I'm happy with the set-up if not my results. At least if we tried this for one month then the mods (more work) could look at results and attendance for all and get some feedback from players in each of the leagues. Awful lot of work and I doubt everybody would be happy but not sure how else this gets resolved to everybodies satisfaction...

[happyhornet]

Re: Punters Lounge exclusive leagues As a relative newcomer to PL, my thoughts are thus: 1. The scoring system seems to work well, but I think that the winners of each event should be recompensed better (either points or cash). Nevertheless the most consistent player over the legs should be the winner. 2. The blinds are fine as they are. 2000 is higher than most MTT's, and given the quality of many of the players on here, 80% of the field are still in at the first break, so higher starting stacks could take the games on quite late 3. Playing different games (not just NLHE) is brilliant. Not only does it favour the more rounded player, it gives us all valuable experience at a variety of games 4. The buy in should be kept relatively low. As stated correctly by TQM, these are more enjoyable because they are friendly. If there was a $1000 prize pool on offer each game, would this not diasppear. Also, many of us low stakes players would not be able to afford the buy-in. Personally, I will enter a $10 MTT now and again. However, when I do, I want most of the opponents to be muppets where I have a good chance of cashing. Against most of you guys, I would be a large underdog, this normally happens :spank and that wouldn't be a great use of my $10. There endeth the sermon.:lol

[GaF]

[slick mick]

Re: Punters Lounge exclusive leagues I would rate them 1 Wurzel 2 Red Fear 3 Penelopeys

[slapdash]

Re: Punters Lounge exclusive leagues

Just something else to throw into the mixer - remember what we did with goalpoker? The winner of each individual game, plus the top 4 from the league played an STT for the prize money .... nothing stopping us doing that again - would be good as most of us wont play in a 10 seat STT for $1000 very often!!! Would this be a popular or unpopular idea?

I quite like that idea, actually. Partly for selfish reasons: I normally find I can only play in about 2 or 3 in each series, so it would give people like me an incentive to play when we could (although I'd play anyway if I were available ... I'm pretty sure that there's been at least one series where I've only played in the last one). I suppose some disadvantages are that it might be hard to schedule the STT so that all the qualifiers could play ... and once you've won a game there's not much incentive to play again ... hmm, I'll have to think about this.

[robilaruk]

[FatBoyFat]

Re: Punters Lounge exclusive leagues GaF I've not been around here too long and have only participated in the Mansion league. However, once I am back into poker in January I intend to participate in a lot more leagues to improve my game. Firstly I applaud the democratic approach in opening this up to the masses as I am sure you have many more things to do with your time. ALso, I am sure you did not expect everyone to want the same changes and invariably some people will be happy with some changes and others less so. Secondly I would recommend exercising some caution with the amount of changes, if any, that you/we as a community decide to make. If it isn' broke then don't try to fix it. IMHO I don't think there is too much broken with the current system and you will never please all of the people all of the time. If some changes are proposed, then continuinng with the democratic approach, do you intend to put it to a a public vote or run a league with the changes anyway as people voting with their proverbial feet is always a better indicator. With regards the points system I think the current system works just about right. The exponential growth in points for the top 3 places, in my opinion, offers the appropriate increase in points to the podium finishers. I am not sure if the person that wins 2 out of 4 (and places last in the other 2) deserves to win a league any more than Mr/Mrs consistency who places 3rd in all 4. They could have lost the coinflips that invariably ensue once you go 3 handed. I accept I am biased because it worked in my favour in the Mansion league, but whilst SlickMick did indeed win twice he did not place that well in the other 2. I, on the other hand, won the first (against the greatest number of competition), placed second in the final tourny, and had 2 other final table finishes. I would be happy for this scoring system to work against me in future leagues as it does feel the most equitable. If you did want to reward the winners even more than the current system then I think the points system is simple, just allocate points based upon net prize money. FBF

[GaF]

Re: Punters Lounge exclusive leagues Democracy? Who said anything about democracy? :tongue2 In all seriousness, as I said at the beginning - no guarantees of any changes - even if exceedingly popular - myself and the other poker mods will listen to what people have to say then form our own views on what we think is best for PL Poker :ok As you say, if it aint broke, don't fix it, and I dont think there is too much wrong at the moment - having said that though, we have to keep it "fresh", and variety is the spice of life ;) I am interested though in how people rank the players from the last month without worrying about points.....my own view is that the points we used didn't get it too far wrong..............The only argument I could see really would be that Wurzel deserved more for 2 wins......

[wurzel133]

Re: Punters Lounge exclusive leagues The problem with an stt to distribute the prize money is that youi arent playing for a 1st place in the league you are playing for 10th spot hoping to do well in the stt. so you could be top win all 6 games (highly unlikely ) then end up with $10 for 10th place when you lose the stt . To my mind this is not a fair way to finish a league

[slapdash]

Re: Punters Lounge exclusive leagues

I am interested though in how people rank the players from the last month without worrying about points.....my own view is that the points we used didn't get it too far wrong..............The only argument I could see really would be that Wurzel deserved more for 2 wins......

If the figures are easily available, could you tell us: (a) How much did each of the top three win in total from prize money in the individual games? (b) How much did they each win in "added" prize money from league placings?

[FatBoyFat]

Re: Punters Lounge exclusive leagues

I am interested though in how people rank the players from the last month without worrying about points.....my own view is that the points we used didn't get it too far wrong..............The only argument I could see really would be that Wurzel deserved more for 2 wins......

As I didn't take part in this I haven't seen the table before but I presume the order you have displayed is the order it finished. For me Pene wins overall no question but 2nd/3rd is much closer to call. Is there a simple points system that would have put Wurzel ahead of redFear but not Pene? I also presume the numbers didn't dwindle significantly between the 1st and last tourny? Even armed with that information I don't think I would change my mind too much, unless of course there were some significant differences. FBF

[Dave488]

Re: Punters Lounge exclusive leagues

As you say, if it aint broke, don't fix it, and I dont think there is too much wrong at the moment - having said that though, we have to keep it "fresh", and variety is the spice of life ;) I am interested though in how people rank the players from the last month without worrying about points.....my own view is that the points we used didn't get it too far wrong..............The only argument I could see really would be that Wurzel deserved more for 2 wins......

Got to say that I don't think there is anything wrong with the league system at the moment. The points system seems to work very well indeed, and does reward winners accordingly, as if anyone has played the Team Reindeer event on Betfair would agree, as that is a horrible scoring system. As for the placings in the league as the saying goes "The League don't lie" and surely the object of playing in a league is to be as consistent as possible. Understand that Wurzel did extremely well to win twice, but Red's two 2nd's and a 4th was just as impressive.

[Valiant23]

Re: Punters Lounge exclusive leagues

Originally Posted by MrV Not publicise the actual scores (although this would just result in speculation and rumour, plus Gaf? would always be aware of who is placed where)

I didn't say I thought it was a good idea, but it was an idea... These league's are sorted out on a month by month basis. I know that as a month is coming to an end then Gaf is already sorting out the arrangements for the following month, so that there is no break.:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy However what Gaf cannot possibly take into consideration when he makes these plans is the fact that we could in the meantime arrange a live meet up, or there are a significant number of PLers at a live event and that could conflict with a PL league game. My argument remains that a league that is exclusive to a small number of people (as opposed to a large number of entrants in open games) can produce large enough swings in points available to the winner that it could dictate the outcome of the league winner. Supposing 2 PLers' performances mirrored each other, and one lost because there were less entrants in the last game. That just seems wrong. I think that the winner of an MTT should still get the same points as any other winner of a PL MTT. My only other concern is the numbers dropping off at the end of a series, but I don't think double points is the answer.... Although if the last game of the series was also the first game of the next series then that may provide sufficient incentive.....

[Pocket Lady]

Re: Punters Lounge exclusive leagues

These league's are sorted out on a month by month basis. I know that as a month is coming to an end then Gaf is already sorting out the arrangements for the following month, so that there is no break.:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy However what Gaf cannot possibly take into consideration when he makes these plans is the fact that we could in the meantime arrange a live meet up, or there are a significant number of PLers at a live event and that could conflict with a PL league game. My only other concern is the numbers dropping off at the end of a series, but I don't think double points is the answer.... Although if the last game of the series was also the first game of the next series then that may provide sufficient incentive... ..[/quote] Thanks GaF :notworthy:notworthy:notworthy Thats an inspirational idea! :clap :ok :okI like this system too. Are you taking the P? GaF would be a gibbering wreck with a day off - total tilt :tongue2 (unless thats what you're after!) - seriously - I missed having a focus game that day because I dont participate in every single one each week. That is why i play - and is the reason that i am there at the end of the month - even though I have more chance of the wooden spoon than the winning trophy. :$

[voiceofjoe]

Re: Punters Lounge exclusive leagues My tenpennth worth from my own perspective Personally prefer the $1Challenge League structure where you qualify for a value freeroll if you win a leg, plus you can also qualify if you finish within Top 10. As I work shifts so in a 5 week league i can sometimes (usually) only make 3 of the games - so if I have a bad game one week, very little incentive to play in any of the other games, unless the weekly winner gets a reward other than the $12 or so dollars for winning the evenings game. We have a lot of mention of bigger stacks, and long blind levels - how about maybe a 'Turbo League' , this could start an hour later and would also reward a different style of play. The best scoring structure IMO is one based on position irrespective of number of players, although should be weighted to reward the higher positions - as again if you don't gain points in the earlier (more entrants) rounds then you are at a deficit in later rounds,even though you've still won a tourney

[Jaded]

Re: Punters Lounge exclusive leagues My own brief thoughts (the only type I have!) 1. I REALLY like the variety of games we're getting in some leagues. I appreciate that the majority have to be NLHE, but I like the different games as well (any chance of fixed limit hold'em at some point, GaF??!) 2. I think the idea of an STT for the top 10 would be good, as well. Maybe split the prize money, so if we have $1000 added, $500 is split according to the league rankings, and another $500 in an STT? 3. The first game of each series being the last of the previous one actually sounds like a good idea to me, as it stops the drop off in entries. 4. I'd rather play more open games than private ones, to be honest. I like the spirit in which the private PL games are played, but I think it's more of a challenge if there's larger numbers, and as Val pointed out, it avoids the problems if there's a PL Live event or something which conflicts.

[Masterplan]

Re: Punters Lounge exclusive leagues i'd just like to play them on a network i can actally connect to :)

[Sharpe1ne]

Re: Punters Lounge exclusive leagues Another idea could be using some of the added cash as bounties on previous months winners of PL events. Say maybe 6 games in the series at $3 each($18) this would be the bounty each week.Over the entire league $180 would be taken out of the overall prize fund and this should keep people interested till the last game(just think of yourselves getting all your entry fees back in the last game).Or if it feels a bit unfair against the monthly winner to be bounty all series maybe put the bounty on the weekly winner opening up larger possibilities of different winners and final table personnel. Think the maximum chips stack i would like to play in PL events is 2500.It gives you a bit of time to manourve and would not go on overly long(hell sod it just recreate the Tikay Tourny structure.)