Pokerplayer article(s) on US ban

[FatBoyFat]

Been a reader and subscriber of PP and IE since the first issues but I thought the articles (pg. 16/17 & pg.21) on the US ban and the implications for security of customer funds was very poor indeed (obviously a VRBNO reference.) I thought PP had an opportunity here to help the poker playing readers but the articles, for me, fell well short of the mark. Anyway, I've sent a letter off to PP but I know a couple of the lads read here so if I don't get an answer from the mag I was hoping I might get a response here. I've attached the email below but one point I didn't put in the mail was the quote from PaddyPower poker. In relation to protection and reassurances over the safety of online accounts their operations spokesman said 'Each customer's poker winnings are held in a PaddyPower.com account and transferred to a particular poker table when a player decides to sit down.' No shit Sherlock. Thats covered it then my money is as safe as houses. I presume nobody else was that arsed and I am being particular anal. I'm turning into a bit of a Victor Meldrew in my old age. 31 going on 51. FBF

Dear Pokerplayer,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

One of my main concerns following the US ban on online poker was the security of my online bankroll as prior to the lunacy of Senator Frist I had held it in a combination of poker sites and online e-money merchants such as Neteller and Moneybookers. I was therefore extremely pleased to see an article on the US ban and a follow-up piece on the protection of customer funds. I had tried to do a bit of digging myself but had not got that far.

I was expecting an informed article covering issues such as what ‘regulated by the FSA’ for Neteller actually means to the customer? For example, what amounts of my funds, if any, are underwritten by the FSA if Neteller passes into administration? I was also expecting warnings that in the unlikely event that Party Gaming, 888 were to cease trading then the return of your funds would not be guaranteed. Given that these companies are publicly listed I would imagine the situation with private companies such as Pokerstars and Full Tilt would be even less secure. I was also expecting a guide on the steps to take to minimise your exposure to any issues arising from the US ban.

Instead I learnt that there is ‘zero chance of my money going south’ (are Dennis Publishing prepared to underwrite this?), that reputable sites ‘have their arses covered, which means they’re good for your money’ and that the big names have ‘huge financial clout.’ I hope the last point was not a euphemism but these points would not make me sleep any easier, if indeed I was losing any sleep over this. Okay, I agree that there is only a small chance of problems and I am certainly not a doom monger but I also do not want to keep my head in the sand in relation to any potential fall-out from the ban on online gaming.

Have you been on Party Poker lately? It is a shadow of its former self to such an extent that it appears they no longer let you know how many players are on the site. I will be waiting for their interim results before holding large sums at Party Poker and whilst I agree with you that they have a ‘huge business’ they also have a huge cost base to go with it. As I am sure former shareholders of Enron, WorldCom or Parmalat would agree, big companies with huge financial clout do not always have their arses covered and to suggest there is zero chance of your money going south would be both misleading and incorrect.

In my opinion the prudent approach would be to wait and see what happens with these companies and in the meantime keep your exposure to online poker sites (US facing or not) to a minimum. I found about $300 I didn’t know I had by cleaning out my poker accounts following the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />US legislation and I am sure other readers would find the odd amount in their dormant accounts too. I am now going to withdraw and re-deposit after each session (or after each bonus is cleared) and as far as possible I will keep funds in a reputable bricks and mortar UK bank. To that end I have set up an off-shore USD denominated account (to avoid the 1.9% fee each time I transfer GBP to USD with Neteller) and hold the majority of my funds with that bank. If I need to boost my bankroll I transfer from the bank into Neteller thus keeping my exposure with those associated with online gaming to a minimum. The added bonus of this is I’m now earning a good rate of interest on the balance that previously with Neteller attracted 0%.

FBF

[Valiant23]

Re: Pokerplayer article(s) on US ban Nice one Mr Angry! :clap I bet that was wrote after a night-time feed. ;) Seriously though mate I like that a lot. Good one. :ok

[Pocket Lady]

Re: Pokerplayer article(s) on US ban I had to read this through twice just to make sure that it wasn't written by Mr V. ;) Nice email matey - :ok

[Cloud]

Re: Pokerplayer article(s) on US ban

I had to read this through twice just to make sure that it wasn't written by Mr V. ;) Nice email matey - :ok

:rollin

[spannerjago]

Re: Pokerplayer article(s) on US ban Sorry to hijack your thread Mr Meldrew but could you or a someone else answer a couple of questions I have about Neteller? I have just withdrawn £157 to my Neteller account. This is the first time I have used it. Am I right in thinking that if I now deposit to a site which uses $ I will have to pay this 1.9% fee? If that is the case can I also have a $ balance in my Neteller account so that I can avoid this charge? On another note. How would I go about opening an offshore $ account? That sounds like a good idea. (Also makes me feel like a bit of a gangster!)

[Valiant23]

Re: Pokerplayer article(s) on US ban

Sorry to hijack your thread Mr Meldrew but could you or a someone else answer a couple of questions I have about Neteller? I have just withdrawn £157 to my Neteller account. This is the first time I have used it. Am I right in thinking that if I now deposit to a site which uses $ I will have to pay this 1.9% fee?Probably If that is the case can I also have a $ balance in my Neteller account so that I can avoid this charge?No On another note. How would I go about opening an offshore $ account?Pass That sounds like a good idea. (Also makes me feel like a bit of a gangster!)

Hope this helps. :ok

[FatBoyFat]

Re: Pokerplayer article(s) on US ban

Sorry to hijack your thread Mr Meldrew but could you or a someone else answer a couple of questions I have about Neteller? I have just withdrawn £157 to my Neteller account. This is the first time I have used it. I think you have deposited to your Neteller account. You withdraw from Neteller to your bank acount. Am I right in thinking that if I now deposit to a site which uses $ I will have to pay this 1.9% fee? I am not sure on this but they usually take any opportunity to screw you so I would work on the assumption you are losing 1.9% versus the true exchange rate. If that is the case can I also have a $ balance in my Neteller account so that I can avoid this charge? Unless you make a lot of GBP deposits to poker sites (which you can use your debit card for) I would strongly advise holding your Neteller funds in USD. Neteller, or the poker sites for that matter, cannot make any margin out of you for transferring USD if you play in USD. If you contact Neteller they will transfer your GBP account into USD. You cannot have both a GBP and USD account IIRC. Although your Mrs can have one and you the other ;) The main problem with this is that when you transfer out of Neteller and into you GBP bank account they will hit you with the 1.9% on the withdrawal. If you deposit back into Neteller a week later you will get hit with the 1.9% on the deposit. Nice business model isn't it. By setting up an offshore USD account you can transfer out in USD and hold your funds in a bricks & mortar high street bank in USD thus avoiding Netellers 1.9% fee. On another note. How would I go about opening an offshore $ account? That sounds like a good idea. (Also makes me feel like a bit of a gangster!) Nationwide International offer a USD savings account that requires a min. balance of $1k and can be managed online. When you complete the application form avoid the urge to state you made the money from drug running or laundering Yakuza funds. Although I stated I made the money playing poker and they were happy to accept me. There are many others available too, eg Citibank, Barclays Int. but I do not have any details on them.

There you go.

[spannerjago]

Re: Pokerplayer article(s) on US ban Cheers for the help. When I said I withdrew to Neteller, I meant that I withdrew from a poker account to Neteller. I didn't get any choice about the currency it was automatically £s. The missus doesn't know it but shes always wanted a Neteller account in $s. My bankroll isn't yet up to having 1k sat in a bank account doing nothing so I think I'll leave that option for the time although I may have a look for cheaper alternatives. Do you think I should say I'm a pimp when I open an account. I don't want to tell them about my seedy employment as a civil servant!

[avongirl]

Re: Pokerplayer article(s) on US ban Anyone else think it's about time USD stopped being the currency of poker and good old sterling £ was instead????

[FatBoyFat]

Re: Pokerplayer article(s) on US ban

Cheers for the help. When I said I withdrew to Neteller, I meant that I withdrew from a poker account to Neteller. I didn't get any choice about the currency it was automatically £s. The missus doesn't know it but shes always wanted a Neteller account in $s. The only thing to watch with this is that your email address at Neteller and the poker site will need to be the same. Therefore you will need to set up accounts in your wifes name for this to work. Fine for cash games but if you go and win entry to a live tourny then it is going to be your Wife that will have to go along :lol My bankroll isn't yet up to having 1k sat in a bank account doing nothing so I think I'll leave that option for the time although I may have a look for cheaper alternatives. Do you think I should say I'm a pimp when I open an account. I don't want to tell them about my seedy employment as a civil servant!

See above.

[Valiant23]

Re: Pokerplayer article(s) on US ban Just my two cents (sorry Avon) pence. ;) I personally would suggest closing your Neteller account and re-opening another in your own name, with the currency you prefer. What seems like a bit of a ballache now could save you from the ballache at a later date.

[PokerPlayerDave]

Re: Pokerplayer article(s) on US ban Hello FBF

You've made some pertinent points, some of which we covered in the article. You obviously wanted an in-depth look at the monetary ramifications of what could happen with your accounts as, from what you've written, you're obviously well appraised of the US poker situation.

However, not all of our readers keep up to date using forums and we have to cater to them as well. There's a lot of players and readers that won't have known anything about the goings on of the sneaky SAFE port act so to suddenly rattle into minutiae of the situation would have been confusing for a lot of people and irresponsible from our side. We have to tell people what has happened, why it's happened and what it means to you, the player.

You also need to bear in mind that with magazine lead times we were writing the news story as it was breaking around us. This is a major situation and one that's going to develop over time so we're going to continue to bring you the latest as it happens.

As for the situation about your money being safe in online accounts. We're not operating with blinkers on but it's not going to help anyone if there's a knee-jerk reaction to a situation that really doesn't affect the situation over here. The fact is there's nothing illegal with you playing with any site so your money's not going to get frozen.

In regards to Party, it may have lost a large chunk of players but it was previously making a profit of about $1m a day. Yes it has lost a fair chunk of its players but to insinuate that it will go from a huge amount like that to crumbling is just not true. Companies like Ladbrokes and Betfair have never taken US business and yet are still running a massively profitable business. Plus the Asian market is looking like relaxing in the near future, which would open a huge new revenue stream.

If you're genuinely concerned about your money then, yes, withdraw your cash or split it across accounts if that makes you feel more secure - that's your personal choice. However, unlike many industries, online operators do not have a "huge cost base" to maintain, as you state. Their costs are basically wages and marketing with a bit of infrastructure and technology on top. As a reaction to the US Bill, operators that have pulled out of the US have shrunk their US operation accordingly. It's as simple as that.

Pulling the ticker on Party showing how many people are currently playing does not indicate imminent closure. It's basically a marketing decision that reflects the inevitable loss of players from the US pull-out. Party was the largest online site and they would naturally want to crow about that. Without the US players Party have dropped the title to Poker Stars, who will probably use this as a marketing hook in the future.

As we said, all reputable online operators hold players' funds in segregated accounts - it's one of the basic requirements - so your money is not used as operating costs. It's completely separate and completely safe. If you're unsure about your particular operator, email them direct and say that, unless you get assurances that this is the case, you're going to withdraw all your funds. You'll get a reply back very quickly.

In fact out of all this, the most common way you're going to lose money is by getting your Aces cracked. We can understand that you might be concerned, but at present there really isn't anything to worry about, and that's not just us being glib, it's the honest truth. (Sorry for the overlong post.)

Dave

[Valiant23]

Re: Pokerplayer article(s) on US ban Hiya Dave (Woods?) :welcome to the PL. Thanks for answering, but you have to bear in mind that the ramifications of the SafePort Act are already staggering. I understand your journalistic(?) need to avoid a knee-jerk reaction but the thruth be told we rely on our Poker Publications to try and be one step ahead of the news and so if any story would have you re-thinking your whole magazine it would have to be this one. I'm lucky that I get as much poker news as I can and happily share what I find on the forum as do others but PartyPoker pulling out of the US and SportingBet being sold for $1 (I think) are just the tip of the iceberg. Jetset Poker have already ceased operating without warning; http://www.punterslounge.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36898& Now maybe they too ring-fence players deposits, but what good is that if you have X number of dollars sat in accounts that you have no access to? Anyway whats done is done. I think FBF has made some valid points and fair play to you for answering them, but I hope you will stress more caution next month. :ok

[FatBoyFat]

Re: Pokerplayer article(s) on US ban Thanks for responding here Dave and I echo Valiants comments of fair play to you for answering. It's refreshing to know our voice is heard, you take our comments seriously and respond appropriately. I still not in the same place as you that there is absolutely nothing to worry about, but then again I am relatively risk averse despite being a poker player (sticking to $1/$2 LH even though I have won well over the 300BB I said I needed to move up). I have worked with a number of clients who cease to be a viable going concern when losing a major customer so exercising caution for me, even more than usual, is the order of the day. Are Party going to go belly up, I'm 99% sure that they are not but I certainly wouldn't say there is zero chance. The smaller outfits? Somewhere less than 99% but nothing to lose sleep over unless you are holding a significant proportion of your net worth with them. Anyway, I'll look forward to the magazine bringing us an update on the latest as it happens. Keep up the good work, there are many excellent features in PokerPlayer and I am still happy with the extension I took to my subscription a couple of weeks ago. FBF