slapdash Posted October 6, 2006 Share Posted October 6, 2006 A theoretical problem. If you've seen it before, please give those who haven't some time to think about it. We're playing a heads-up cash game with 10/20 blinds and we both have enormous stacks, far bigger than the blinds. I raise to 50 as small blind, and accidentally show you my hand, which is: <>? &&&&&. I know you've seen it, and you know that I know you've seen it. (And in case it matters, I know that you know that I know, etc. :D) Your go. Assuming we'll each play optimally to maximize our expected profit or minimize our expected loss, with which hands should you: (a) fold? (b) call? © raise? If you think the answer is obvious, try to explain why it's obvious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68allin Posted October 6, 2006 Share Posted October 6, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA a) I dont think theres many hands id fold if any as i have an advantage of knowing your cards, and that u know it. hence for 50 im in! c) I dont think id be raisng with many hands either as then i lose my advantage as u could then just come over the top all in. b) Most likely as if its a flop that really suits the aa then u can get out cheaply, but if its a danger flop 3 di's or clubs or for say 789 rainbow, i could maybe extract a few chips off u, by u maybe believing im bluffing or by actually hitting my hand! so- a) probally A ? off suite (? meaning blank) B) almost all hands except - A ?, unlees the blank was suited C) AA big! probally change my mind after reading other views Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted October 6, 2006 Share Posted October 6, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA (a) fold? (b) call? © raise? If you think the answer is obvious, try to explain why it's obvious. Er..... isn't it obvious? :tongue2 HAVE to call with ANY 2 cards. The situation at the moment is that your opponent is NOT behind. You know that and your opponent knows that. If you raise, then it would be correct for your opponent to reraise all in. He knows he isn't behind and he should remove your ability to benefit from the knowledge you have of his cards. You cannot fold - you have perfect knowledge of the cards that are out there. Your opponent has no idea of your cards - that advantage makes it worth seeing a flop with any 2 cards....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted October 6, 2006 Author Share Posted October 6, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA c) I dont think id be raisng with many hands either as then i lose my advantage as u could then just come over the top all in. Yes. If you raise, I will always reraise all-in. So you should certainly never raise unless you have AA as well, and even then your expected profit is certainly no higher if you raise than if you call, so you may as well just call. So it's down to: (a) fold? (b) call? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick mick Posted October 6, 2006 Share Posted October 6, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA best hand heads up against AA is 67s with a 26% chance of winning we need to add 30 to a pot of 70 so even with the best possible hand we are not getting odds to call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted October 6, 2006 Author Share Posted October 6, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA You cannot fold - you have perfect knowledge of the cards that are out there. Your opponent has no idea of your cards - that advantage makes it worth seeing a flop with any 2 cards....... But how big is that advantage, compared to the disadvantage of having worse cards than me? What is your strategy on later betting rounds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted October 6, 2006 Author Share Posted October 6, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA best hand heads up against AA is 67s with a 26% chance of winning we need to add 30 to a pot of 70 so even with the best possible hand we are not getting odds to call. Excellent! :dude We have somebody who thinks it's obvious you should always fold, and somebody who thinks it's obvious you should always call. That's the kind of "obvious" I like. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted October 6, 2006 Share Posted October 6, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA On the flop, if there is any conceivable hand that is ahead of AA (there almost certainly is) then you have the chance to represent that..... a bet should take the pot down (though your opponent will know this ;) ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted October 6, 2006 Share Posted October 6, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA best hand heads up against AA is 67s with a 26% chance of winning we need to add 30 to a pot of 70 so even with the best possible hand we are not getting odds to call. That's just the odds of winning a showdown ....... your odds of winning through your opponent folding to a bet will IMO make a call Positive EV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick mick Posted October 6, 2006 Share Posted October 6, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA That's just the odds of winning a showdown ....... your odds of winning through your opponent folding to a bet will IMO make a call Positive EV What if he pushes all in on the flop knowing that 74% of the time he has you beat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted October 6, 2006 Share Posted October 6, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA What if he pushes all in on the flop knowing that 74% of the time he has you beat? If he pushes all in on the flop, then it's a simple decision for you based on your chance and the pot odds - and DEFINITELY then gives you the implied odds to call pre flop. It would be a mistake for him to push all in IMO - if as you say, 26% of the time you have him beat and are calling for his entire stack!!! The Aces, should in my opinion be check folding unless they have the nuts...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmuzeman Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA best hand heads up against AA is 67s with a 26% chance of winning we need to add 30 to a pot of 70 so even with the best possible hand we are not getting odds to call. What is in the pot preflop is totally irrelevant to no limit poker with deep stacks. As long as you both have loads behind you. I would call and see if I could flop a big hand. Its worth doing. He might even think your pretending you have a big hand cos youve both seen the AA etc. May as well call tbh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmuzeman Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA If he pushes all in on the flop, then it's a simple decision for you based on your chance and the pot odds - and DEFINITELY then gives you the implied odds to call pre flop. Yep Gaf is right there. Its all about the implied odds of the stacks. If we are both only having 10bb or something like this then its a definite fold. Btw the raise option is a bit stupid why the hell would you want to raise :lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA mathematically this is an easy fold - as the bb you are getting 9-5 or 8-3 for your money (depending if you raise TO 50 or for ANOTHER 50) waaaaaaaaaaaay behind the 4-1 or so you need to call with any 2 raise - do I think I am Gus Hansen or the typical Hungarian Womble?? call - how big is my stack and how often do the blinds go up? - need more info before saying as a realistic answer gut reaction is to call and hope to hit a monster hand - but in fact I think the correct play is to fold and play the next hand so fold and move on nice post! Damo A theoretical problem. If you've seen it before, please give those who haven't some time to think about it. We're playing a heads-up cash game with 10/20 blinds and we both have enormous stacks, far bigger than the blinds. I raise to 50 as small blind, and accidentally show you my hand, which is: ? &&&&&. I know you've seen it, and you know that I know you've seen it. (And in case it matters, I know that you know that I know, etc. :D) Your go. Assuming we'll each play optimally to maximize our expected profit or minimize our expected loss, with which hands should you: (a) fold? (b) call? © raise? If you think the answer is obvious, try to explain why it's obvious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAULM03 Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA I'd call this every time. You know what cards he has, so after the flop you know for certain a) if you are ahead and b) by how much. Stacks are deep and blinds low so regardless of odds it's a cheap call. Maybe the question should be what should the guy with pocket As do after the flop, knowing that the other player knows his cards. Much more difficult call IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA Maybe the question should be what should the guy with pocket As do after the flop, knowing that the other player knows his cards. Much more difficult call IMO. Agree!! I think he has to Check and fold to any bet (which is why it's madness for the guy without AA to fold IMO). The ONLY exception I can think of is if he is holding the nuts, in which case he shoves all in ...... Say the flop comes K 9 4 rainbow - AA checks, other guy should bet regardless of his cards and I dont see how AA can call - he ONLY has a pair and his opponent knows this......but AA doesn't know what his opponent holds (could be any 2) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelopeys Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA I would call the extra $ 30 and see what the flop brings... If It beats his aces I'm home safe... If not... depending on the flop of course, I would try to make him believe that 1 pair (AA) is not enough to beat Penelopeys :ok Bottom line: Always call when you know the opponents cards :ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelopeys Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA Maybe the question should be what should the guy with pocket As do after the flop' date=' knowing that the other player knows his cards. Much more difficult call IMO.[/quote'] Agree completely... he's the doomed player in this hand...and he knows it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAN DAN Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA Agree!! I think he has to Check and fold to any bet (which is why it's madness for the guy without AA to fold IMO). The ONLY exception I can think of is if he is holding the nuts, in which case he shoves all in ...... Say the flop comes K 9 4 rainbow - AA checks, other guy should bet regardless of his cards and I dont see how AA can call - he ONLY has a pair and his opponent knows this......but AA doesn't know what his opponent holds (could be any 2) Only way AA can win is to go all-in and hope he has the winning hand cos I am going to go all-in with any 2 cards after flop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guesswest Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA Its an obvious fold in terms of odds. So it's just a case of whether you believe you can bluff the player out of the pot. You almost certainly can knowing his hand, so I'd be tempted to call this with any two cards - but it's really a question about your opponent and psychology as opposed to the mechanics of the game. So you'd have to assess it at the time based on what you know about him/her and what they know about you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA without looking at the original post he had a red ace and a black ace - any one know the suits? so you flop 2 pair on a flush board - did he have an ace of that suit? and how do you out play your opponent on the flop - are you shoving your 2 pair and hoping he calls? I want to play everyone who would call with any 2 knowing that I have Aces - please let me know when you are available for a HU game, coz I see a long term profit in the making thanks Damo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guesswest Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA It's profitable only because I just told you I'd do that :) Which is why I said it's all about the particular psychology of the situation. And you can also turn that knowledge imbalance around - if you think I'll call and bluff with any two I then have implied odds to play any two hoping I outflop you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA I want to play everyone who would call with any 2 knowing that I have Aces - please let me know when you are available for a HU game' date=' coz I see a long term profit in the making[/quote'] IMO you've grossely underestimated the value of knowing your opponents cards and hugely overestimated the value of Aces once a flop has come down. The AA has to act first after the flop. A few people have suggested he should shove almost regardless of what comes on the flop - If I have 2 pair and he has 1 pair (and no obvious straight and flush draws) - do I call? Yes of course!!! If the AA doesn't improve and doesn't bet, then it's my decision - can a free card help me? (and put me ahead) If so, I probably check and take it. If not I probably bet. If the flop looks dangerous to the aces - say 678 soooted (and he doesn't hold the A of the suit) then I bet (something like 50% of the pot) no matter what. When you going to give us your answer Slapdash? (and PLEASE don't tell me this is some sort of trick question!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA as I said - I am playing HU with anyone who calls with any 2 knowing I have Aces - there is psychology at play here - its just a muppet call that in the LONG RUN will lose money - FACT - yes there is short term variance at work that means you outflop the rockets with the potential to win a big pot, but until the board is complete a two pair flop has not won anything - HE is about 7 cards not 2 or 5 what is ironic is that everyone is saying 'easy call', yet they bitch like mad when the hungarians crack their aces...... :lol Damo It's profitable only because I just told you I'd do that :) Which is why I said it's all about the particular psychology of the situation. And you can also turn that knowledge imbalance around - if you think I'll call and bluff with any two I then have implied odds to play any two hoping I outflop you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA as I said - I am playing HU with anyone who calls with any 2 knowing I have Aces - there is psychology at play here - its just a muppet call that in the LONG RUN will lose money - FACT Not if you're offering me 1000-1 on my money - FACT :tongue2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guesswest Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA as I said - I am playing HU with anyone who calls with any 2 knowing I have Aces - there is psychology at play here - its just a muppet call that in the LONG RUN will lose money - FACT - yes there is short term variance at work that means you outflop the rockets with the potential to win a big pot, but until the board is complete a two pair flop has not won anything - HE is about 7 cards not 2 or 5 what is ironic is that everyone is saying 'easy call', yet they bitch like mad when the hungarians crack their aces...... :lol Damo I totally disagree with that. The positive equity you pick-up from knowing your opponents cards absolutely is massively greater than the negative equity in being behind. We bitch like mad when the hungarians crack out aces because they didn't 'know' we had aces. If you're going to shove after the flop then we certainly have implied odds (and then some) to call. If you're not we can make a very informed judgement as to how bluffable you are, or whether we can get bets called when we do outflop you. You're in the dark for the whole hand and we know exactly where we stand. Having this kind of information is massively more valuable than having a stronger hand pre-flop. It's a definite positive expectation call for me. And slap was careful to mention the large pre-flop stacks - this question is all about implied odds, and you have them with any two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA actually it is you that has hugely over estimated the value of any 2 and underestimated how far you are behind and how much money this play will cost you in the long run. you are at least a 4-1 dog PF and you have to hit the flop - with Aces you don't have to hit a thing - they don't have to improve to win, and at no point are you getting correct odds to call with any 2 - which makes it an incorrect play in the long run - its the Sklansky Theory of making mistakes Would I shove the flop? - of course not! that is ALSO a muppet play and will only get called by the better hand (at the time - 2 more cards to come remember) - I would make a value bet just like I would at any other time (and no I am not interested in discussing the theory of what I would do if villian reraises my Aces all in - unless we have a more detailed scenario with stacks sizes, blind structure etc - as it is a pointless arguement to base the maths on) Damo IMO you've grossely underestimated the value of knowing your opponents cards and hugely overestimated the value of Aces once a flop has come down. The AA has to act first after the flop. A few people have suggested he should shove almost regardless of what comes on the flop - If I have 2 pair and he has 1 pair (and no obvious straight and flush draws) - do I call? Yes of course!!! If the AA doesn't improve and doesn't bet, then it's my decision - can a free card help me? (and put me ahead) If so, I probably check and take it. If not I probably bet. If the flop looks dangerous to the aces - say 678 soooted (and he doesn't hold the A of the suit) then I bet (something like 50% of the pot) no matter what. When you going to give us your answer Slapdash? (and PLEASE don't tell me this is some sort of trick question!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robilaruk Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA no - you are behind - it makes no difference from a theoretical/mathmatical standpoint - it is a -EV play and how excatly are you going to outplay the rockets and make money? if folks are going to disagree and say that it is right to call just because you know he has aces is a poor explanation and a very poor justification for calling - its about making MONEY, so someone explain to me how to make money and get the aces to fold when the board starts to play Damo I totally disagree with that. The positive equity you pick-up from knowing your opponents cards absolutely is massively greater than the negative equity in being behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guesswest Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA There's two possibilites here: 1. Knowing that we both know you have aces, you can be bluffed out of the hand, in which case we're right to call. 2. Knowing that we both know you have aces, you can't be bluffed out of the hand, in which case we have implied odds to call. It's a winning call in both scenarios. The only question is whether you can judge which it is - which is why I originally said it's about psychology and how well you know your opponent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaF Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Re: Heads up against AA We're playing a heads-up cash game with 10/20 blinds and we both have enormous stacks, far bigger than the blinds. Is this the info you're after Damo? If you want a specific figure for stacks, lets say we both have equal stacks of $10,000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.