Bad Play Creating Good Pot Odds

[Valiant23]

I've started a new thread for this because what I don't wish to do is victimise anyone in particular, but I'm interested in others thoughts on the subject. Actually I suppose I am victimising Slapdash, as its his post in this thread; http://www.punterslounge.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33336

But once he'd bet' date=' he was getting [b']HUGE pot odds to call the reraise. If his opponent had shown him he had pocket aces, it would still be right to call. About the only hand opponent could show that would make me sorry I'd called would be pocket jacks.

Which causes me concern. Last night I saw teaulc go out of the APAT tourney because some one needlessly(?) tried a blind steal with 86os. teaulc called his raise then hit top pair on the flop and quite rightly pushed all in. Because there was an 8 on the flop the other guy called. After the hand the 'villain' justified his call by claiming he had value (or the odds). This, in my opinion is completely different to Damos (by the way Robilaruk, can't you ask for a PL name change so that you are just Damo?) series of posts about calling with crud cards in the right situation, as Damos situations are ones that aren't normally instigated by him. So, how can you claim to have the right odds when your bad play creates the environment to have the statistically correct odds? I know I'm going to get slaughtered on the maths side of things in this argument, but I don't see too many posts of support to people such as teaulc and Gazza (to use the most recent, but by no means the only examples) that encourage this kind of play, so there has to be something wrong with it. Doesn't there?

[morlspin]

Re: Bad Play Creating Good Pot Odds Personally, i dont play percentages and pot odds, i play my cards against what i beleive the other player/s to have In tonights case, id have folded, knowing i was beaten, thus keeping me in the tourney where i could rebuild and go on and hopefully win. To push in cos you have good pot odds is like giving away money, yes you may have live cards, and heads up is different, but on the final table, with a lot of play left if you fold, why call?

[slapdash]

Re: Bad Play Creating Good Pot Odds It's OK, I don't feel victimized. :D If you make a bad play, putting lots of your chips in the pot, and then follow it up by putting more chips in because you have correct pot odds, that doesn't justify your previous bad play. But once you've made the bad play, it's made. There's no going back. You've put yourself in a bad situation. But once you're in that bad situation, why does it make a difference whether you've got there by bad play or bad luck? Your bad play has a large negative EV. Your subsequent pot odds decision has a smaller positive EV. In all, you've made a negative EV play on the hand. You'll lose in the long term by playing like this. But you'll lose more if you make the bad play and then don't make the correct pot odds decision. And of course, sometimes you'll get lucky.

[^Newbie^]

Re: Bad Play Creating Good Pot Odds Had a little rest , back refreshed and thought about the hand . First , i may have raised too much such that i find it very difficult to get away from it . (I try to raise 3x BB most of the time) Perhaps , if i had raised just 2x , i might end up folding after the shove as i know i'm defo behind . But one thing's for sure though , definitely a very poor play on my part . I got beaten by the best hand that is . Like others who mentioned it , this sort of bad play would not help in the long run . Right , back to the learning curve i guess , plenty to learn from this focus game . :ok

[robilaruk]

Re: Bad Play Creating Good Pot Odds having not read the other post I would say this: you make a move and get caught - however the money in the pot is no longer yours, its POT MONEY - every decision after that should be based on what you have, what you think your opponent has and whether by calling you are getting decent odds to win (and what the consequences of you calling are to the rest of your game). by raising and then folding because its obvious the villian has AA to your KK is wrong is you are getting 5:1 odds or more as you are only a 4:1 dog - if you played this scenario a billion trillion times you would come out ahead. yes it may seem like a crap call and even if he flipped his cards over, mathmatically it is correct to call - obviously depends on how many chips you might have left, what stage of the tourney, etc etc etc, but from a purely maths viewpoint 5:1 with KK vs AA is the correct call every day of the week for LONG TERM profit Just my thoughts Damo ps how can i change my log-in name?? someone do tell :)

I've started a new thread for this because what I don't wish to do is victimise anyone in particular, but I'm interested in others thoughts on the subject. Actually I suppose I am victimising Slapdash, as its his post in this thread; http://www.punterslounge.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33336 Which causes me concern. Last night I saw teaulc go out of the APAT tourney because some one needlessly(?) tried a blind steal with 86os. teaulc called his raise then hit top pair on the flop and quite rightly pushed all in. Because there was an 8 on the flop the other guy called. After the hand the 'villain' justified his call by claiming he had value (or the odds). This, in my opinion is completely different to Damos (by the way Robilaruk, can't you ask for a PL name change so that you are just Damo?) series of posts about calling with crud cards in the right situation, as Damos situations are ones that aren't normally instigated by him. So, how can you claim to have the right odds when your bad play creates the environment to have the statistically correct odds? I know I'm going to get slaughtered on the maths side of things in this argument, but I don't see too many posts of support to people such as teaulc and Gazza (to use the most recent, but by no means the only examples) that encourage this kind of play, so there has to be something wrong with it. Doesn't there?

[Jaded]

Re: Bad Play Creating Good Pot Odds Gotta agree with Damo and slapdash here - if you make a stupid call, hit yourself on the head or whatever - but DON'T let it stop you seeing the situation as it is. It's quite possible for calling/raising to be a bad idea post-flop but a good one post-turn, or whatever. The key is that the money in the pot is IN the pot. It's already OUT of your hand, don't chase it needlessly but don't throw something away if the odds are worthwhile!! As Morl said, however, the odds aren't the only thing to consider - for example, if you're on the final table it might be the right idea to ditch even if the odds are right if it's going to boost you a place or two in the standings. But DON'T throw stuff away just because you screwed up once - all that means is you're making two mistakes!!!

[robilaruk]

Re: Bad Play Creating Good Pot Odds exactly - dont compound an error by making another one Damo

But DON'T throw stuff away just because you screwed up once - all that means is you're making two mistakes!!!