vix Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Hey guys I was in two minds about posting this largely because I have a friend who works for Mansion and I don't want to upset her. However, although this information has been in the public domain for a while now, I don't think you guys have stumbled across it. About a month ago, Mansion advertised two affiliate free rolls. One for a $5000 and another for a seat to the Poker Dome. Both were labelled as 'Affiliate' freerolls and neither gave further information as to which affiliates were included. At the time, I thought this was suspect and so googled various combinations. I found nothing, so then decided to google usernames already registered to the tournament (in the past when I've googled usernames of opponents I've come up with good information). What I came up with was this:- http://groups.google.fm/group/rec.gambling.poker/browse_thread/thread/6ecc2c0be22d6078/2f28dffccbddd2b3 Looking between the players on the list and those registered for the tournament I saw that of the 7 registered for the Dome freeroll, 4 appeared on that list. And of the 11 registered for the 5k invitational, 7 appeared on the list. With so many "props/known colluders" registered for "affiliate invitationals" that no-one else had access to, I felt it pertinent to bring it to Mansion's attenion and sent Mansion the following email:- Hi I was looking at the 2 poker invitationals that have been posted - the $5000 Invitational and the Poker Dome Invitational. Unclear on how to be included, I googled some of the usernames and was shocked to find this page pop-up posted way back on 28th May regarding Mansion prop players and known colluders:- http://www.recpoker.com/index.php?search_id=83141&view=collapsed&sort=thread_date&order=dsc It's the second thread down. Having read that, I was surprised to see how many of these props and colluders have been included in the 'affiliate invitiationals'. 7 of the 11 registered in the 5k invitational appear on this list. While 4 of the 7 in the Dome invitational qualifier appear. Please advise as to how these people have been given seats. Victoria They replied to me with:- Hello Victoria, Further to you email of earlier today firstly may we thank you for your email and the information you provided, We confirm we are currently using the services of prop players, to ensure an adequate level of action on the MANSION poker site and whilst we build up level of active players.. We assure you that we use a reputable 3rd party prop management company who constantly monitor the props, added to this we have a highly skilled security team who monitor all play on the site and anyone suspected of colluding or any other activity that is not in keeping with fair gaming would be immediatley suspended from play until a thorough investigation was completed. Thank you again for bringing this to our attention, it is very much appreciated. Should you have any further concerns or queries please contact us. Kindest regards, Julie MANSION Member Services So they admitted to using props, and within a matter of days the original web-site that I had emailed to them had been removed. If you check the link: http://www.recpoker.com/index.php?search_id=83141&view=collapsed&sort=thread_date&order=dsc it no longer exists. It's fortunate we can still locate it through google's cache. In the actual tournaments that took place, only 13 played the Dome tournament and 18 or so played the $5k. The pay-out structure however for the $5k was changed to top 12 ....... rather than the normal payout. Over the past month, I've used the list and enjoyed marking off those on there who I come across in my player notes. On one occasion I was sat with 3 of them at a table in a tournament and witnessed soft playing which I immediately reported to support. I've never had a reply from that. In annoyance to being ignored I spoke to another during a cash game and asked him which Prop Management company he worked for. He ignored me and left the table once the hand was completed. Soooo I had forgotten about this over the past few weeks. I had games to play and things to do etc! I see however that this week, yet again Mansion have posted another spurious "affiliate" freeroll for both the Dome and $5k. And, surprise surprise, the same players are registered. Check the players off from the 'props/colluders' list and those who play the tournament ........ Mansion bingo!!! Food for thought? Cheers Vic x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runadrum Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Re: Naughty Mansion (affiliate freerolls for props, not affiliates!) Presume these guys are playing mostly non-freerolls as I haven't come across more than one or two of them. I'm not sure what Mansion get out of it - more money than sense springs to mind. :unsure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Re: Naughty Mansion (affiliate freerolls for props, not affiliates!) My understanding of prop players is that they get paid an hourly rate or favourable rakebacks to 'occupy' the site. Maybe this is Mansions way of paying back their prop players. Cant really see what they are doing wrong, am I missing something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valiant23 Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Re: Naughty Mansion (affiliate freerolls for props, not affiliates!) The real problem here doesn't really lie in the fact that there are props on Mansion, I think the problem is that there are so many, and when they appear on the same tables they know each other and softplay. Plus why have barious tournaments under "Affiliate freeroll" banners? The other thing is the players who I've come across quite frankly play like they don't give a toss, and why should they if they get paid regardless? ANTIMATTER is a player who springs to mind in these examples. I personally don't like the fact I could be playing house players. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vix Posted August 1, 2006 Author Share Posted August 1, 2006 Re: Naughty Mansion (affiliate freerolls for props, not affiliates!) Aye, props get paid not to 'occupy' but to promote and build business in cash games. They get told to get games going and are told to leave and start new ones when they're full. In this instance Mansion are employing a 'prop management' company, who I am SURE would be taking a percentage of all transactions so i think it's unlikely the props would purely be paid by just these 2 tournaments - i think these are 'perks'/staff discount. I didn't say there was anything wrong with using props. However advertising Freerolls as for "affiliates" is wrong if it's for "staff" which these are, and excluding actual affiliates such as PL is obscure. Props are generally used for cash games, to generate traffic and rake. I know I'm not the only one here who early on on mansion saw many of those listed caning the $200 added, $500 added $20+2, etc added mtt's while they had value and, at the time, we were none the wiser that a lot of our opponents were all working under the same company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Re: Naughty Mansion (affiliate freerolls for props, not affiliates!) So they admitted to using props, and within a matter of days the original web-site that I had emailed to them had been removed. If you check the link: http://www.recpoker.com/index.php?search_id=83141&view=collapsed&sort=thread_date&order=dsc it no longer exists. It's fortunate we can still locate it through google's cache. Nobody has removed anything. The page is a Usenet posting, and your original link was just a search string that doesn't happen to find that post anymore. The post you found was by somebody who seems to have made one anonymous post to a poker newsgroup, and has never made another post under that name before or since, making unsubstantiated allegations. Personally, I don't think posts like that deserve any attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Re: Naughty Mansion (affiliate freerolls for props, not affiliates!) This Usenet posting seems to explain how Mansion's props work: http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.gambling.poker/browse_thread/thread/42953e24f1009d64/69977efd26a26301?lnk=st&q=&rnum=2&hl=en#69977efd26a26301 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Re: Naughty Mansion (affiliate freerolls for props, not affiliates!) Aye, props get paid not to 'occupy' but to promote and build business in cash games. They get told to get games going and are told to leave and start new ones when they're full. In this instance Mansion are employing a 'prop management' company, who I am SURE would be taking a percentage of all transactions so i think it's unlikely the props would purely be paid by just these 2 tournaments - i think these are 'perks'/staff discount. I didn't say there was anything wrong with using props. However advertising Freerolls as for "affiliates" is wrong if it's for "staff" which these are, and excluding actual affiliates such as PL is obscure. Props are generally used for cash games, to generate traffic and rake. I know I'm not the only one here who early on on mansion saw many of those listed caning the $200 added, $500 added $20+2, etc added mtt's while they had value and, at the time, we were none the wiser that a lot of our opponents were all working under the same company. right I got you now vix thanks and yes I agree with you, slight stretching of the truth by Mansion (but what can we do - nothing I guess :\) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tax_Monkey Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Re: Naughty Mansion (affiliate freerolls for props, not affiliates!) Nice bit of detective work there Vix:clap:clap:clap I wasn't aware Mansion were using props, although given the traffic on site it's not really surprising. However I'm with Mr V on this I don't like the idea of props in tournaments:( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vix Posted August 1, 2006 Author Share Posted August 1, 2006 Re: Naughty Mansion (affiliate freerolls for props, not affiliates!) This Usenet posting seems to explain how Mansion's props work: http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.gambling.poker/browse_thread/thread/42953e24f1009d64/69977efd26a26301?lnk=st&q=&rnum=2&hl=en#69977efd26a26301 Thanks for that slap ...... I'd found the link through google and it became all jumbled on subsequent visits. It was probably coincedental that the link i posted worked when i sent it to mansion and after they replied to me, it had vanished. It's interesting to read the thread about how it works though! " Any prop that plays 7000 raked hands in a 4 week period will be eligible for a prop only $5,000 free roll. · Props to be eligible for the Poker Dome promotion: 10,000 hands in 4 weeks will receive a free entry to the tournament." That's fair enough as added incentive ..... but why advertise to the rest of us that it's "affiliate" and, why not set up a similar scheme for actual users of the site? 7k hands in 4-weeks would incentivise much more cash games for ALL users, not just props! and 10k hands for Dome similar!!! Far more preferable to qualifying through a field of discons and eegiots to get to a final of yet more eegiots. If Mansion labelled these things as they actually are rather than as 'affiliate' things, then it wouldn't be so bad. It's mis-representation. Having read their qualifying requirements they deserve what they get ...... however, not at the expense of others and these guys are incentivised to be playing CASH games, yet MANY of us have come across them in tournaments (one recently i had 3 of them at the same table - a Dome qualifier). Off topic briefly ........ regarding Dome qualifiers - those who have been to the Dome have been told to keep quiet they're qualified for 1c entry right? As they don't have a gaming license for the Dome and it's treated like a 'gameshow' instead. So Mansion started introducing freerolls to replace the 1c buy-in Dome mtts and I assume this is why ....... so why do NPPL get $2 buy in Dome mtts- where the prize fund is split and 1st wins dome seat? It seems like a complete contradiction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedonist Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Re: Naughty Mansion (affiliate freerolls for props, not affiliates!) Off topic briefly ........ regarding Dome qualifiers - those who have been to the Dome have been told to keep quiet they're qualified for 1c entry right? As they don't have a gaming license for the Dome and it's treated like a 'gameshow' instead. So Mansion started introducing freerolls to replace the 1c buy-in Dome mtts and I assume this is why ....... so why do NPPL get $2 buy in Dome mtts- where the prize fund is split and 1st wins dome seat? It seems like a complete contradiction. When you meet the representatives from Mansion they tell you not to mention Mansion.com on TV but you are able to talk about Mansion.net, something to do with advertising in the US. As to prop players in cash games, a couple of times I have been on a table when the board has shown a rainbow Ace high straight and a player has gone all in knowing it has to be a split pot, if they are getting 120% rake back it begins to make sense. I don't like it! :cry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocket Lady Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Re: Naughty Mansion (affiliate freerolls for props, not affiliates!) A little false advertising there, the tourney should be named private rather than affiliate if the affiliates do not have access to it. Freerolls and 1c tourneys attract enough attention without house players making up the numbers, the amount of times we have all been a little too late and the tourney is full makes my blood boil :@ knowing that these players are being paid to be there :wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Re: Naughty Mansion (affiliate freerolls for props, not affiliates!) Freerolls and 1c tourneys attract enough attention without house players making up the numbers, the amount of times we have all been a little too late and the tourney is full makes my blood boil :@ knowing that these players are being paid to be there :wall. But they're not, are they? :unsure The description of the benefits that props get was based on rakeback and "bonuses" for playing so many raked hands. Freerolls and 1c tournaments don't pay any rake, so as far as I can work out, the props are not being paid in any way for playing in these. These guys are not pro poker players employed fulltime by Mansion. They're just Mansion customers like us who have signed up to a deal where they get some benefits for getting cash tables started. If they play in the regular freerolls and 1c tournaments, then as far as I can see, they're competing on exactly the same terms as the rest of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Mardell Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Re: Naughty Mansion (affiliate freerolls for props, not affiliates!) Maybe H1ghlander has some insight into how this works. He was talking about rake back recently? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedonist Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Re: Naughty Mansion (affiliate freerolls for props, not affiliates!) Betfair have a Proposition player scheme which all players are eligible for: Proposition Player Get paid up to £20 per hour to play What is the Prop Player Incentive Scheme? The Prop Player Incentive Scheme is an automatic system that helps us balance the tables, start new games and ensure that you won't be waiting for a game for any length of time. How do I join up? Any player registered with Betfair Poker is already a member of the Prop Player Incentive Scheme. If you are waiting for a game on a full table a message may pop up offering you a cash incentive to go to a particular table and start a game. If you accept the offer you will be taken to the game, if you do not accept the offer you will remain on the waiting list for the table you wish to join, and you also have the option to exclude yourself from receiving such offers in the future. If you have recently taken part in the Prop Player Incentive Scheme your name will be placed at the end of the queue and you will not see the message again until your name reaches the head of the queue. Depending upon how much time you spend in the poker room you could see the prop message several times a day. I have never been given this choice but I rarely play on Betfair cash tables, has anyone been a Proposition player? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H1ghlander Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Re: Naughty Mansion (affiliate freerolls for props, not affiliates!) Not really has propping mate i had chance to a few years back but to be honest its lousy you have to play bad games. Anyway the primary reason a site uses props is to make it look busier than it actually is so when a new player comes along they think plenty of players plenty of action stick around see how it goes which then causes a snowball effect players attract players so forth regards to rakeback 120% is a form of payment without giving them a set amount each week i presume just an incentive to play as many hands as possible this would be how its worked out example 6 players and the rake is $3.00 each player will have contributed 50 cents in rake thats assuming the calculations are based on true rake some sites pay contributed rake thats b.s it is in reality only 10% but lets say for example you play 3000 hands in a day its an hefty sum at 120% the common payout is 30% for players not playing as props Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H1ghlander Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Re: Naughty Mansion (affiliate freerolls for props, not affiliates!) yes hedonist i did once but its B.S what they dont tell you is once the game gets 4 handed the payments stop not upto 2 hours as advertised and the amount they pay is pitiful for starting a game up all crypto sites offer this look in options youu have probably got it decline all invites to start new tables as prop My advice is keep it this way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H1ghlander Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Re: Naughty Mansion (affiliate freerolls for props, not affiliates!) Might i add what a lot of people dont tell you is the proportion of rake sure they can offer you 30% question is what is it 30% of what if its a skin then it becomes 30% of 70% which translates to about 21.5% or summit dumb like that and if its also contributed rake then forget about it lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Re: Naughty Mansion (affiliate freerolls for props, not affiliates!) By the way, where are these "affiliate freerolls" advertized? I just tried searching on the web and the Mansion site and all I could find was that if you opened the Mansion site and went to "Tournaments", there were two restricted tournaments listed as "Invitational $5000 Freeroll" and "Poker Dome Invitational", and if you clicked on "Go to tournament" they were further described as "$5000 affiliate invitational freeroll" and "Poker Dome affiliate invitational freeroll". But I couldn't find any advertisements for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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