What would you do?

[Masterplan]

MTT on VC/Tribeca

[Jul 30 15:40:52] : Hand Start.

[Jul 30 15:40:52] : Seat 1 : Jimmy Dee has $2,560

[Jul 30 15:40:52] : Seat 2 : laurie75 has $4,010

[Jul 30 15:40:52] : Seat 4 : fingrrrs has $2,380

[Jul 30 15:40:52] : Seat 5 : lev trotsky has $3,860

[Jul 30 15:40:52] : Seat 6 : bren bren has $5,700

[Jul 30 15:40:52] : Seat 7 : Masterplan7 has $5,370

[Jul 30 15:40:52] : Seat 8 : seannless has $6,790

[Jul 30 15:40:52] : Seat 9 : MHANDY75 has $2,860

[Jul 30 15:40:52] : laurie75 is the dealer.

[Jul 30 15:40:52] : fingrrrs posted big blind.

[Jul 30 15:40:52] : Game [29] started with 8 players.

[Jul 30 15:40:52] : Dealing Hole Cards.

[Jul 30 15:40:52] : Seat 7 : Masterplan7 has 4c 4h

[Jul 30 15:40:57] : lev trotsky folded.

[Jul 30 15:40:58] : bren bren folded.

[Jul 30 15:40:59] : Stakes: 100/200 Current level: 4 Level up in: 2 min. Break in: 25 min. Players : 176

[Jul 30 15:41:04] : Masterplan7 called 200 and raised 800

[Jul 30 15:41:07] : seannless called 1,000 and raised 800

[Jul 30 15:41:07] : MHANDY75 folded.

[Jul 30 15:41:09] : Jimmy Dee folded.

[Jul 30 15:41:09] : laurie75 folded.

[Jul 30 15:41:10] : fingrrrs folded.

[Jul 30 15:41:12] : Masterplan7 called 800

[Jul 30 15:41:13] : Dealing flop.

[Jul 30 15:41:13] : Board cards [4d Kc 2c]

Masterplan7 first to act ...

[GaF]

Re: What would you do? Have to say - I hate your pre flop play - too big a raise from you, and then calling the reraise - this was VERY expensive to go into a flop where you probably come out not knowing where you are (i.e. an underpair) - your chances of flopping a set (5 or 6 to 1?) mean the implied odds are not there if you hit and are sure of getting all of his money in...... However, you got lucky and hit your set and now need to get paid off. Can't slow play too much with 2 clubs on the board. If your opponent is aggressive, I may check here - if he is passive then I bet. Are you going to tell us he has KK (not inconsistent with his small preflop reraise) or A3 and hits the 5 or something?

[jones12345]

Re: What would you do? id check hoping he bets big then come over the top of him even if hes got aces u still winning.But hey im no expert lol

[GaF]

Re: What would you do? Out of interest - given how this opponent has played before, what range of hands do you put him on when he puts in such a small preflop reraise? Without knowing anything of the player or the level this game is at, it screams of a Monster to me!!!!! He WANTS a call.

[GaF]

Re: What would you do?

this was VERY expensive to go into a flop where you probably come out not knowing where you are (i.e. an underpair)

And out of position too ....... ugh!!!!!!

[jones12345]

Re: What would you do? yeah hes probably got kk but not every1 bets good with a big hand. he could just have ak people do bet big with that 1

[jones12345]

Re: What would you do? come on master what did u do? And what did he have?its killing me

[brael]

Re: What would you do? 44 from that position? Bin 'em every time... is there a possibility your opponent is playing AA?

[jones12345]

Re: What would you do? but hes hit trips hard to bin em now

[Masterplan]

Re: What would you do? the table as a whole was playing tight, i'd just had a good run of hands after coming back from a runner runner suckout and had been showing my raises with big pockets and big aces which hit about 6 or 7 hands out of the previous 10. i figured i could take the extra blinds or end up 50/50 or better with one of the shorties with my 4s. the single re-raise smelt entirely of aces, so i called the 800 into the 3100 pot giving me good enough pot odds with my stack to see if i hit my set. which i did. putting the guy healthily on aces i wanted to give off the impression i had AK or a big king or someething similar so, knowing he has aces i shove expecting the call. and he does call. with disasterous results.

[Jul 30 15:41:16] : Masterplan7 bet 3,570 and is All-in

[Jul 30 15:41:18] : seannless called 3,570

[Jul 30 15:41:18] : Showdown!

[Jul 30 15:41:18] : Seat 7 : Masterplan7 has 4c 4h

[Jul 30 15:41:19] : Stakes: 100/200 Current level: 4 Level up in: 1 min. Break in: 25 min. Players : 174

[Jul 30 15:41:20] : Seat 7 : Masterplan7 has 4c 4h

[Jul 30 15:41:21] : Seat 8 : seannless has Ks Kd

[Jul 30 15:41:26] : Board cards [4d Kc 2c 2d 5s]

[Jul 30 15:41:26] : Seat 7 : Masterplan7 has 4c 4h

[Jul 30 15:41:26] : Masterplan7 has Full House : 4s full of 2s

[Jul 30 15:41:26] : Seat 8 : seannless has Ks Kd

[Jul 30 15:41:26] : seannless has Full House : Kings full of 2s

[Jul 30 15:41:26] : seannless wins 10,940 with Full House : Kings full of 2s

[jones12345]

Re: What would you do? i think that was more unlucky than foolish.you,d probably do the same thing again so no worries.Mind u next time you.ll probably fold em pre-flop lol

[robilaruk]

Re: What would you do? have you seen him make continuation bets? if so check and then shove what ever he bets (am assuming he bets something reasonable of course) if not, then lead out with a taster bet of about 600 and see what he does, and that includes calling if he shoves Damo

[PokerBarney]

Re: What would you do? Todays lesson - why not to play 44 OOP after a re-raise. Bleurgh.

[PokerBarney]

Re: What would you do? Oh, and your odds are not great. Getting 3.8-1 assuming you're up against an overpair, when you're 7.2-1 to hit on the flop. If you miss the flop, you can't really justify calling any more money. And don't say you're counting his stack as implied odds...

[Dave Mardell]

Re: What would you do?

i figured i could take the extra blinds

Nothing wrong with that assumption, but you dont need to raise 5xBB to pick up the blinds. If the table is tight and the blinds have no hand they are just as liable to fold to a minimum raise as they are a big one. Ida gone with the standard 3xBB - as it stands youve over extended your self on a VERY mediocre hand

or end up 50/50 or better with one of the shorties with my 4s.

Hard to imagine how you could get a call and be better than 50 50 to be honest. A3 maybe but chances are huge that at BEST your facing overcards, and more than likely an over pair - which is infact what happened.

the single re-raise smelt entirely of aces, so i called the 800 into the 3100 pot giving me good enough pot odds with my stack to see if i hit my set.

44 against AA is roughly a 4/1 dog. The pot was giving you 3.875/1, so a call was slightly incorrect. However I dont think your really going to want to put more money in unless you hit a set which is a 7/1 proposition which you did not have odds for. Even if you figure to get the rest of your stack in (which aces probably calls on that flop) 800 to call only gives you 4.5/1 against the rest of your chips which is a far cry short of the 7/1 needed. In the end you was a bit unlucky that your read was off and you walked into a suicide flop that you cant really get away from, but you should never have been there. As I say your idea of picking up the blinds was fine but you over extended yourself - had you only raise 3xbb the minimum reraise is so much easier to fold...

[PokerBarney]

Re: What would you do? I can't remember where I read it, but some pro recomends raising to 2.5xBB instead of 3. If blinds are at 10/20, raise to 50-55 instead of 60. The extra chips you save count for something in the long run. I've done it occasionally when stealing, and it sure does hurt less when the small blind comes over the top.

[Dave Mardell]

Re: What would you do?

I can't remember where I read it' date=' but some pro recomends raising to 2.5xBB instead of 3. If blinds are at 10/20, raise to 50-55 instead of 60. The extra chips you save count for something in the long run. I've done it occasionally when stealing, and it sure does hurt less when the small blind comes over the top.[/quote'] Indeed. I use it a lot in the late stages of SNG's where a 3xBB is too much of my stack buy a minimum raise shows too much weakness.

[robilaruk]

Re: What would you do? never ever fold here after you have made the move initially - that IS bad poker, you are getting great odds to hit the flop, and lets see if he has AK AQ then you are ahead (and folks do reraise with these hands, its not just over pairs) set - 7/1 on the flop, not the board, lets not get our odds mixed up here - it is 'correct' to call as you are getting proper odds for the re-raise trips over trips is just UL - you cannot fold trips here and anyone who does is a muppet Damo [quote=Dave 44 against AA is roughly a 4/1 dog. The pot was giving you 3.875/1, so a call was slightly incorrect. However I dont think your really going to want to put more money in unless you hit a set which is a 7/1 proposition which you did not have odds for. Even if you figure to get the rest of your stack in (which aces probably calls on that flop) 800 to call only gives you 4.5/1 against the rest of your chips which is a far cry short of the 7/1 needed.

[Masterplan]

Re: What would you do? jsut to add in the extra fact that makes the 5x pf raise more believable ... this was a $0.60 + $0.06 tourny. these fish call marginal suited anything to a 3x raise :)

[PokerBarney]

Re: What would you do? Damo - "you are getting great odds to hit the flop, and lets see if he has AK AQ then you are ahead" Sure, but Masterplan's read was AA. If he's reading for AA.. then it's a marginal call since the pot is not quite offering 4-1. That's if you see all 5 cards, not the 7-1 you need for the flop to hit. You can't call knowing you're drawing to a straight against AA.. Of course, once you've hit the set, there's only one move.

[Dave Mardell]

Re: What would you do?

Sure' date=' but Masterplan's read was AA. If he's reading for AA.. then it's a marginal call.[/quote'] Which is exactly what I was trying to get at in my post. The call wasnt bad against overcards, but "knowing" your up against aces...well..like you say - marginal.

[robilaruk]

Re: What would you do? still a correct call IMO - you can't definately know he has AA and lets think about it - the flop is rags, so AA boy plays 'clever' and checks hoping to induce a bluff bet so he can come over the top with his Aces and 'prove he is a superior player'.... see it all the time, players have a premium PP on a rag flop and let someone have a card for free waiting to check raise, or hoping they hit a pair on the turn because their aces are still 'good' :eyes you will often see Aces check the flop and bet the turn, i do it sometimes if the board is uncoordinated and am comfortable with me being outdrawn if I decide to check I would call PF every day of the week here, you need to acculmate chips in an MTT and take the odds when they arrive, you might have the 55/45 edge of 44 vs overcards, I can't see how you can lay this down PF, the pot is huge compared to your stack. Damo

Damo - "you are getting great odds to hit the flop, and lets see if he has AK AQ then you are ahead" Sure, but Masterplan's read was AA. If he's reading for AA.. then it's a marginal call since the pot is not quite offering 4-1. That's if you see all 5 cards, not the 7-1 you need for the flop to hit. You can't call knowing you're drawing to a straight against AA.. Of course, once you've hit the set, there's only one move.

[PokerBarney]

Re: What would you do? "you can't definately know he has AA" - you're right, you can't DEFINITELY know, but you can be fairly sure. Say you were playing a live tourney, and the same thing happened. Your oppo shows his cards to his mate, who then whispers in someone else's ear a little too loudly. You now know for sure he has AA.. do you still call?

[robilaruk]

Re: What would you do? he does? excellent his hand is dead and I win! my point is that after the initial move is it very wrong to throw away for another 800 chips, so yes I would call, the villian could have a whole range of hands some of which you are behind to and some of which you are ahead to. and I am not sure how you can be definately sure he has rockets - how can you? how does one get a read online? Damo ps definately sure? is that the same as a postively maybe? ;)

"you can't definately know he has AA" - you're right, you can't DEFINITELY know, but you can be fairly sure. Say you were playing a live tourney, and the same thing happened. Your oppo shows his cards to his mate, who then whispers in someone else's ear a little too loudly. You now know for sure he has AA.. do you still call?

[PokerBarney]

Re: What would you do? "he does? excellent his hand is dead and I win!" - Play along... The point I was trying to make is that you have to go with your reads. If you don't, why bother making them? If Masterplan read the guy for AA or some other high pair (as he said he did in the OP), then his play was not a good one.

[robilaruk]

Re: What would you do? and its still a good call IMHO, in an MTT you don't get many chances to accumalte chips, so you need to take them The odds offered are good enough to call to hit your hand and outdraw rocket boy what amazes me is that people always say I knew he had aces (this normally happens after they get beat - people forget the times they had AK) - you rarely hear "I knew he had AK and I was ahead so I called rather than shoving" just a thought Damo

"he does? excellent his hand is dead and I win!" - Play along... The point I was trying to make is that you have to go with your reads. If you don't, why bother making them? If Masterplan read the guy for AA or some other high pair, then his play was not a good one.

[PokerBarney]

Re: What would you do? "and its still a good call IMHO, in an MTT you don't get many chances to accumalte chips, so you need to take them The odds offered are good enough to call to hit your hand and outdraw rocket boy" But given the read, this is a terrible chance to accumulate chips! And (given the read), you DON'T have good odds!

[Masterplan]

Re: What would you do? poker isn't ALWAYS about playing the odds tho.

[PokerBarney]

Re: What would you do? No it's not. If you can bluff your opponent then fine.. but here is not a good spot to bluff. Clearly.

[Valiant23]

Re: What would you do? Don't you think that in order to play you sometimes have to 'believe' sometimes that the villain doesn't have the cards to beat you? You see I don't believe that Masterplan for one second would have put the villain on Aces if the flop was 4, A, rag (without the wheel possibilities for the sake of argument). Masterplan would then believe the villain has queens or kings. 5xBB raise and you're not folding 44? Simply put, Masterplan chose a bad hand to play and got burnt.