Call 2 all-ins?

[PokerBarney]

Here's the situation. Blinds are 50/100, you're on the button with ~4000, and the short stack UTG+1 goes all in for his last ~700. It folds round to the button, who goes all in for his last ~3000. The button has had a nice run of cards recently.. KQ, JJ, QQ, AK and shown most of them down. You have 88. Do you call?

[PAULM03]

Re: Call 2 all-ins?

Here's the situation. Blinds are 50/100, you're on the button with ~4000, and the short stack UTG+1 goes all in for his last ~700. It folds round to the button, who goes all in for his last ~3000. The button has had a nice run of cards recently.. KQ, JJ, QQ, AK and shown most of them down. You have 88. Do you call?

No for me. I try to only get involved in multiway all-ins when I'm desperate or have the nuts.

[H1ghlander]

Re: Call 2 all-ins? Absolute fold ok to call both all in if both sub 1k however you have a situation here where the shorty can treble up you can lose to the other chap and then become weakest chips must fold not even a call unless AA , kk would be a tough call in this situation also

[Valiant23]

Re: Call 2 all-ins? I had almost the exact situation twice last night, and I folded on both occasions, knowing that even if I had the best hand heads up, it is severely weakened, and I didn't need to get involved so I didn't. On the first occasion - I had AK... and after deliberating and taking 30secs of my time bank I eventually folded. The two all ins had JJ and QQ, and although neither improved, there was no A or K on that board.:dude 2nd time I raised 9x the BB (the raises need to be that big to get rid if the chasers) the guy after me called my raise, then the table fish went all in for most of my stack. I figured shorter stack had a real hand, but the fish could have had anything, so I decided to fold my 10 10. shortie had KK fish had 99. I would have doubled up, but I still feel I made the right decision.

[Dave Mardell]

Re: Call 2 all-ins? The short staqck has probably found a small or middle pair he can chuck in with. The guy on 3000 probably doesnt have much himself. Maybe AQ AJ TT or JJ and is trying to get the low man heads up by pushing in. I think I could only call in that spot with QQ KK AA or AKs The short man may well have aces but its only 700 to you and with QQ + you probably figure to have the guy on 3000 chips beat and will win his side pot for a good profit. 88 is a straight fold though. They could both have only over cards and thats a lot of cards to fade for your money :)

[PokerBarney]

Re: Call 2 all-ins? That's nice to know. I thought it was a fold too. I was on the button, re-raising all in, specifically to get hands like 88 to fold. He didn't, and his pair held up. Muppet.

[Dave Mardell]

Re: Call 2 all-ins? What did you have? And the 700 guy?

[PokerBarney]

Re: Call 2 all-ins? Er.. shorty had K7s I think. I had ATo. So still not that much of a dog going in, but I didn't want to be flipping for my stack at that point, hence the push.

[robilaruk]

Re: Call 2 all-ins? no Damo

Here's the situation. Blinds are 50/100, you're on the button with ~4000, and the short stack UTG+1 goes all in for his last ~700. It folds round to the button, who goes all in for his last ~3000. The button has had a nice run of cards recently.. KQ, JJ, QQ, AK and shown most of them down. You have 88. Do you call?

[Dave Mardell]

Re: Call 2 all-ins? Yeah nothing wrong with your play there. You had the shorty well beat, and you got a coin flip from the guy who has you covered. Good shout to wind up with 6700 chips that didnt pan out. Not sure how the guy called with 88 though :)

Er.. shorty had K7s I think. I had ATo. So still not that much of a dog going in' date=' but I didn't want to be flipping for my stack at that point, hence the push.[/quote']

[AJ]

Re: Call 2 all-ins? I think it's bad poker by the guy on the button to push, assuming this is a tourney game, he should simply call the 700 chips that the guy has pushed with, in an effort to encourage more callers. In the situation holding 88, yes I'd fold. If he'd simply called the 700 chips, I'd have called with a pair of 8's and checked to the river with the other caller. You want to knock the shortie guy out, it increases both your ev, you see this type of unoffical cooperative play quite often.

[Dave Mardell]

Re: Call 2 all-ins?

You want to knock the shortie guy out' date=' it increases both your ev, you see this type of unoffical cooperative play quite often.[/quote'] Yeah thats something Slansky bangs on about. Dave Ulliot shares the same opinion as me of Slansky - hes an idiot! I dont see any value in kocking someone out of a tournament until your either in the money and your prize position increases, or very close to the bubble. Beyond that your sole concern should be aquiring chips. Why give someone with a worse hand a shot to beat you?

[slapdash]

Re: Call 2 all-ins?

Yeah thats something Slansky bangs on about. Dave Ulliot shares the same opinion as me of Slansky - hes an idiot!

No. Sklansky thinks it's rubbish as well (except in some very specific situations which don't apply here).

[AJ]

Re: Call 2 all-ins? All depends, I play 5 player stts with money for first 2. Knocking someone out takes me closer to the cash, if I think someone will check down to the river, I'll play ball

[slapdash]

Re: Call 2 all-ins? Sure, all things being equal, you'd like to get rid of a player. But all things aren't equal: Small stack goes all in. You're calling/raising. If you raise and get rid of the other players, there's just the two of you. If you just call to tempt another player in, and it works, and you check down to the river, there are three of you. In the second case, you are more likely to get rid of the small stack. Slightly. It only makes a difference if you come last, short-stack comes second and third player comes first at the showdown (ignoring tied hands). But you are also giving the short stack more chips to play with if he wins the hand, and therefore decreasing the chance of getting rid of him on later hands.

[PokerBarney]

Re: Call 2 all-ins? "I think it's bad poker by the guy on the button to push, assuming this is a tourney game, he should simply call the 700 chips that the guy has pushed with, in an effort to encourage more callers." But I didn't WANT more callers. I knew I was ahead of the short stacks range, but the players behind me might have marginal hands. I pushed to get rid of them, since I didn't want to be racing, and I assumed they didn't either. The aim here isn't to take the shorty out, it's to get my hands on more chips. I know I can beat him, but I may not be able to beat others if they get in cheaply, so I raise. If they can get in cheaply, I'm wasting chips. Oh, and the "taking a guy out coop" thing doesn't really apply here. We were well off the money in an MTT.

[robilaruk]

Re: Call 2 all-ins? no no no - you are MILES away from the money - you want those chips and knocking out one other player between you doesn't help if it costs you 1/6th of your stack as the other guy beats you - thats just silly and defo not +EV if its bubble time then yes yes yes, make the co-operative play Damo

I think it's bad poker by the guy on the button to push, assuming this is a tourney game, he should simply call the 700 chips that the guy has pushed with, in an effort to encourage more callers. In the situation holding 88, yes I'd fold. If he'd simply called the 700 chips, I'd have called with a pair of 8's and checked to the river with the other caller. You want to knock the shortie guy out, it increases both your ev, you see this type of unoffical cooperative play quite often.

[Dave Mardell]

Re: Call 2 all-ins? My memory must be playing tricks on me. Thanks for the correction :)

No. Sklansky thinks it's rubbish as well (except in some very specific situations which don't apply here).

[slapdash]

Re: Call 2 all-ins?

My memory must be playing tricks on me. Thanks for the correction :)

I only know because I recently read his book on tournament poker, and he's very down on the idea in there. Of course, maybe he's changed his mind since he wrote that.