Tournament vs Cash

[guesswest]

GaF's excellent post on inflection points got me thinking about this, though not in a very organised way so apologies if this is a bit of a ramble...... I started playing online poker about 2.5 years ago, and for the first year and a bit played only tournaments, and did really well. I picked up 20+ four figure finishes - and in one beautiful week I won the $10 buy-in 20k guaranteed on prima ($5600 1st) twice in the same week, monday and wednesday. At that point I decided to work on my cash game, and I was at the time a godawful bad cash player. But I worked on it and got better and eventually ended up showing regular profit. But I noticed that as my cash game improved, my tournament results suffered. Now my tournament results are just plain shite. I'd initially put it down to variance and a bad run, but with the downturn in tournament performance having gone on over a year now, it's a sample that's staticially significant so I can only assume I'm just not playing as well as I used to. So I've been trying to work out what it is that I'm doing wrong, and GaFs thread on inflection points gave me an idea. A tournament is essentially a mini-bankroll. In a cash game you'd always want to take positive expectation because you're playing for the long term, so if there's five people in front of you all-in you'd call aces every day of the week even though you're an underdog. When I started playing cash it took me a while to wrap my head around that, but I think when I finally did, I then developed a problem stopping myself from applying the same thing to tournament play. For instance in a cash game if I have AKd and the flop comes rags with 2 diamonds and I put the guy on an overpair, I'll call everytime because with 2 overcards and the flush draw I'm a small favourite. The problem is, I think, I'm making the same calls in tournaments. In the same way you wouldn't sit down in a cash game way above your usual stakes with your full bankroll, you need to play tournaments as a microcosym, with your stack representing your full bankroll. In a cash game I don't want to shut out the flush draw, I just want to take away pot odds so it's an unprofitable call if my opponent chases. But in tournaments I DO want to shut out the draw, or at least make it a much bigger mistake to call, because I'm going to run into situations where i'm a similarly small favourite multiple times in one tournament and I only need to lose it once to get knocked out - and the odds hugely favour that I will lose it once. I'm making a fairly decent income playing cash, but I'd really like to do better in tournaments. So in summary I think that a big part of why I'm now a fairly crappy tournament playe - taking small +EV way too frequently when I'm not under pressure to do so, and failing to minimise the amount of hands that result in a showdown. If anyone has any thoughts or suggestions as to how I could improve my tournament game I'd greatly appreciate it! - cos I'm certainly doing something wrong. I'd also be interested to hear from others as to how they rate themselves at tournaments vs cash, what you think the differences are etc

[Pokerose]

Re: Tournament vs Cash A new struggle for me. Gafs post also got me thinking a lot in this direction. I've been playing poker for a year now, firstly limit hold em (I ask myself how, how did I ever play limit for so long? Wheres the all in button?!) And no limit cash games for about 5 months now. I'm not a great cash player, I usually just play micro limits but I'm satisfied enough at the moment with the way things are. I don't really look at poker winnings as an income as such, so I'm not that dependent on the way a game turns out. Except, small stakes cash games can be a bit of a grind. Grinding out small edges with the long term expectation of a steady profit for playing correct poker. Only one thing is going to happen if you go all in with 84o in the games that I play. No positive expectation there So, after reading some of the things on this forum, I decided to look at playing MTTS. One of my biggest problems is looking at my hands the same way that I look at my hands in cash games. And changing my style of play. In all fairness, anyone who has seen me play a cash game will know that actually, theres not that big a stretch. I can be a bit of a bully, and I guess thats why the move in to tournaments hasn't been that much of a shock. My biggest problem is coming up against players who will happily out aggress me and what to do about them. This change has not been very positive for my cash game, I'm afraid. I find it difficult sometimes to move successfully between the two modes. I now really only play for cash with strict provisos in mind. Simply that, I need raked hands at Ladbrokes; I need to take a few risks as possible whilst doing so; If I want to play in an MTT at Ladbrokes, my expectation of winning is still not that high so I must get my buy in in the cash game beforehand. My Bankroll there is pretty static at the moment due to these factors, especially that I'm funding small buy in MTTs with it, But I have enough good sessions to keep me out of trouble. For a preference, frustrating as I find them, I suppose I probably like Tournaments better at the moment. I'm still on my second reread of Harrington 1. Its helped me immensley.

[georgej]

Re: Tournament vs Cash My $1.50 at betfred has kept me playing STT's for the past week, winning and losing a few. When i tried cash games, i saw the cards i played were so wrong after about 5 min. No longer play cash games although i tried it for a week, but i ended up writing down the cards i played and the situation for each hand to come up with a working theory so i could swing between the two styles. This was the only way i could claw back some of my early losses and worked quite well. Only problem is that this is way too inflexible and had to concentrate way too much for my liking. (Those that have played against me may know what i mean by that) There are 2 very distinct styles for Tournament and cash games and i can't see any way of making the transition easily - it's almost like playing a different character. Another thing i found when returning to tournament play was that i was being more of a muppet than usual. Chasing cards instead of folding when the raise size was not enough to deter me. Had to get used to folding hands again and looking at how the other players were playing in relation to their stack size. Having an above average hand and folding it preflop had to be relearnt if there was a shortstack who may go allin and it would cost a third of my stack - was i willing to call that much? The different games ask different questions of the player and once you get these straight, it's probably easier to manage how you play the different styles. One thing i have found though is that you need to be flexible at times - so you're on your own with working that one in to the equation. Just my opinion, but thought i'd share it. I don't often get in the money in MTT's but play the same way in STT's - so the above is not advice. Just thought you'd like a view of the muppet's perspctive :ok

[guesswest]

Re: Tournament vs Cash Cheers guys, great input from both :) This is the thing that hits home the most for me

Chasing cards instead of folding when the raise size was not enough to deter me. Had to get used to folding hands again and looking at how the other players were playing in relation to their stack size.

Certainly in a cash game when deciding to peel it's mostly just mathematical. So if I add it up and have pot odds to peel I'm always going to. I feel like that's probably where I pick up most of my edge in cash games (a lot of people understand pot odds just fine, but not so many seem to actually work them out at the table), so it's become pretty hard-wired through positive reinformcement to make those calls - to the detriment of my tournament play. :( So when I'm in a tournament I find myself doing the same maths, seeing that I have +EV and calling on draws. But the problem is the same, stack exposure - I need to be folding those 51% +EV hands in tournament play and it's just become so automatic to call if I have +EV. Am not saying I shouldn't be calling draws at all, but I think the value has to be much more substantial in a tournament situation. Would be really interested to know if anyones ever put a figure on that amount. I might start working on a guesstimate of 65% for tournament play - don't like the idea of playing that robotically one bit, but think it might be useful for a while to force myself into good habits. And one thing I didn't mention - I play shorthanded cash, five-six handed, which I think is another problem when it comes to adjusting my game for tourneys, am much more used to clashing with the kind of marginal hands I don't want to be showing down in a 10 seater tournament.

[robilaruk]

Re: Tournament vs Cash excellent series of post I too suffer from shite tourney play at the moment, and i know this is because I have been playing cash games. It does take a different mentality to play both forms and I switch back and forth when I have a bad run in one of them, this HAS helped me I have found to get my confidence back. Just my thoughts Damo

[georgej]

Re: Tournament vs Cash Guess I think the way i play (on a wing and a prayer) gives me a grey area to work within. I don't do the math on the cards which may explain why i don't win much, but i go quite often by the minimum raise value and compare the bets going out as a pair, but not top. If i have a good chance of getting a higher pair or i have a certain number of outs, then i call. Also one thing i concentrate more on in Tournament play is the slow play aspect. If the flush or straight does not seem like an option, put in a low bet and see what the others may have before betting heavy and blocking all but a few chasers out. Watching how other hands pan out was not of much interest to me before i saw a very impressive sandbagging. 2 chipleaders and a few weak and seemingly hesitant bets followed by an allin when both players were committed. I never put the player on those cards, but had noticed that they didn't stay in a hand unless they had a fighting chance. I guess in cash games it doesn't really pay to bluff, but as GaF's earlier post said, position can swing a poor hand in your favour - just keep taking the blinds. In the early days i used to look at MTT's as "i'm doing well if i just double my BB each round". Aim small and hit hard with the big hands - i used to be worried about chasing people out of the pot only to be rivered, but now "make them pay 'til it hurts".

[^Newbie^]

Re: Tournament vs Cash nice posts up there . I happen to be the opposite . I think i'm pretty crap at cash games but in MTT , i think i do better . I just can't seem to get the 2 of them correctly .

[Valiant23]

Re: Tournament vs Cash I am possibly the worlds worst cash player, and until recently I would have said I'm an okay MTT player, BUT I have changed my game slightly (I don't know yet what I'm doing wrong/differently :(- I know golfers suffer like this too) and I'm doing crap in MTT's/STT's too now. If I have a decent drawing hand in tournament play, say K10 spades, I obviously want to see a flop. The chances of you having the nuts in 5 cards are (?) pretty remote. If you are lucky you will hit say 4 to the straight or flush. Its at this point before I bet into the pot I have to put a value on the hand I hold. The question then is, will I be allowed to see my hand develop? and how much of my stack is it going to cost me? When I am unsure of any of the answers to these questions then a rule of thumb I have is I am prepared to pay for 1 more card. I am quite happy to fold in the face of heavy betting if I don't hit heavily, but IF I am made to pay heavily for my draw, then I WILL put anyone all in if I think I have the nuts. I think I remember Doyle Brunson(?) saying build up a pot then take it away.